It's possible Neolithic period, which began 10,000BC and ending as late as 2,000BC in this part of the world, could overlap with the Bronze age (3,000 - 1,200BC)?

@ Bilingualexpat my thoughts exactly, but in addition, it may show how important Yunnan was in the copper and tin trade, aka bronze trade via rivers flowing to southern cities such as Ankor Watt and other sea side trade centers.

Lufengosaurus. Ha ha. I am pretty sure no such creature ever existed.

@dolphin: Doesn't help anybody much just to be told what you're sure of - try telling us why since it was discovered 80 years ago.

Are you guys talking about Lufengosaurus huenei or Lufengosaurus changduensis?

Very simpl e. Fake fossils.

Look up the. Great dinosaur fossil hoax ...

phys.org/news/2018-03-million-year-old-infected-predator.html

Well, I tried, dolphin, but my VPN is out and my computer is running slow and all I could see was about how triceratops may have been faked and some others about how past fakes have occurred in China, mostly, apparently, by farmers or somebody wanting to make a quick dollar in other areas of China. I tried lufengosaurus hoax and saw no mention of a hoax. I did get the above.
Anyway, what website are you referring to?

You can read The Great Dinosaur Hoax at bennettleeross.com

He claims dinosaurs were invented to push the theory of evolution, which I think is plausible. And I think evolution is nonsense.

He also claims the actual fossils in museums is made of bones of cats, chickens, dogs, pigs. A company in China grinds up the bones of these animals, and then glues them back together into fake dinosaur bones. and if you can create a fake dinosaur out of legos, you can also invent all sorts of fake dinosaur shapes from reconstituted chicken and dog and pig bones.

Minds blown?

T Rex is not a real body shape as a creature like that would not be able to stand.

Aliennew, did you notice that they can't downvote us in these comments sections here? Loophole! Woohoo!

ignoramusaurus

Read the article, dolphin: not credible. Usefully, this guy points out the popularity of dinosaur parks etc., thanks largely to Hollywood, and that there is apparently this nonsense-profit-making company in Sichuan that produces fakes. But he claims that NO dinosaur fossils have ever been discovered. Obviously, tens of thousands of geologists and paleontologists disagree (and it's interesting that the article is categorized as 'archeology'' and 'history', neither of which disciplines deal with dinosaurs or any other prehistoric fossils), but he just says they can't be trusted and Ross apparently has no resources to argue with them, except to point out that people sometimes fake things. No mention of any good reason why so many trained people might all be considered either liars or dupes. And how the hell does he claim to have any expertise in the matter himself?
You've got to do better than this - strongly suggest that you read more widely. Are you sure you're not simply believing what you want to believe, without evidence? This is where conspiracy theories come from.
If lufengosaurus is a fake or a mistake, that's not impossible, but he doesn't even mention the creature.

very funny, dazzer!

the dinosaur factory is in in Zigong, Sichuan ... anyone want to go there on a field trip? "replicas" of alleged dinosaurs are made there and sent to museums around the world. museums do not have any actual dinosaurs ... only "replicas" made in a factory ... nothing suspicious there.

> No mention of any good reason why so many trained people might all be considered either liars or dupes.

Sorry, I can't answer that.

Ancient cultures have no records of dinosaurs, even though we've been told they've existed for millions of years. Dinosaurs were "discovered" in 1840 something. When the Great Wall was built, there must have been a whole lot of excavation going on ... and they would have found dinosaur fossils then.

BTW, I made a mistake to link that web site because it contains a bunch of garbage I don't agree with. I will not link any more web sites in the future. I don't recommend that web site at all.

Regarding dinosaurs, he makes some points I think might have some validity. There are things about dinosaurs that are questionable, but it doesn't mean that article I linked is completely reliable either.

I believe the statement that "museums do not have any actual dinosaurs" is simply false - true of SOME 'museums', I'm sure.
Since dinosaurs were only 'discovered' in 1840 and since those who built the Great Wall should have, according to you, come across dinosaurs fossils, then who is it that you think put the fossils in the rock between the building of the Great Wall and 1840?
I base my belief (willing to be corrected, though, by any further data) that lufengosaurus lived on a trust in the findings of people in a scientific field the basic principles of which I understand, and I have no reason to think that they might be either liars or dupes. Since you don't recommend the web site and don't think the article is completely reliable and don't give a reason for doubting the reliability of tens of thousands of geologists and paleontologists, then what do you base your distrust of the authenticity of lufengosaurus on?

Dolphin: Would you consider that you might simply be mistaken about lufengosaurus? If not, why not?

Alien mate, it would make more sense for you to argue with a real dolphin.

I am not putting any more links, just quotes:

"No tribes, cultures or countries in the world ever discovered a dinosaur bone before the mid-1800s, and then they were suddenly found all over the world. All these places were inhabited and well-explored for thousands of years before this time, why had no one ever found a dinosaur fossil before? "

"to this day no complete skeleton has ever been found, and so all dinosaurs are reconstructions."

aliennew: "and don't give a reason for doubting the reliability of tens of thousands of geologists and paleontologists, "

"'Dinosaur' bones sell for a lot of money at auctions. It is a profitable business. There is pressure for academics to publish papers. Museums are in the business of producing displays that are popular and appealing. Movie producers and the media need to produce material to sell to stay in business. The mainstream media loves to hype alleged dinosaurs finds. Much is to be gained by converting a bland non-dinosaur discovery, of a bone of modern origin, into an impressive dinosaur find, and letting artists' interpretations and imaginations take the spotlight, rather than the basic boring real find. There are people who desire and crave prestige, fame and attention. There is the bandwagon effect and crowd behaviour. And then there are people and entities pursuing political and religious agendas. Highly rewarding financial and economic benefits to museums, educational and research organizations, university departments of paleontology, discoverers and owners of dinosaur bones, and the book, television, movie, and media industries may cause sufficient motivations for ridiculing of open questioning and for suppression of honest investigation." -David Wozney, "Dinosaurs: Science or Science Fiction".

"The fact that "T-Rex" bones have sold at auctions for upwards of $12 million shows how lucrative the field of dinosaur-hunting can be, and it just happens to be Museum officials who serendipitously seem to make the most prolific finds! "

The first dinosaur to ever be publicly displayed was the "Hadrosaurus foulkii" .... What few people know, however, is that no skull was ever discovered and no original bones were put in the public exhibit.

A visual and a sculptural artist were promptly hired to invent a skull, and from the illustrations of another artist, who had depicted the Iguanadon, the two artists drew the same face for the Hadrosaurus foulkii. The people involved could now technically defend the existence of this dinosaur, if someone were to ask. The stunt worked out so well, and fooled the public so thoroughly, that they could later change the head of the creature without anyone noticing. To this day, Hadrosaurus foulkii is on display at the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia. The bones are said to be kept behind heavy, closed doors, but a plaster copy is exhibited in their place ... So we learn of an iguana skull being substituted for the skull of a dinosaur on display.
-David Wozney, "Dinosaurs: Science or Science Fiction"

The bones are said to be kept behind heavy, closed doors = they don't exist.

All the museum displays, models, mannequins, cartoons, and movies of prehistoric monsters you have ever seen are all imaginative reconstructions based on incomplete skeletons arranged in a manner paleontologists believe to be most realistic. Furthermore, the skeletons exhibited in museums are all admittedly intricate fabrications made of plaster, fiberglass, various epoxies, and other animal bones, not original fossils.

In an article titled "A Fossil's Trail From Excavation to Exhibit" one insider remarked that, "Through moldmaking and casting we can totally fabricate limbs, ribs, vertebrae, etc., for the missing pieces of an articulated skeletal mount.

In fact, the huge "dinosaur bone" displays found in museums across the world are admittedly carefully prepared fakes! No independent researcher has ever examined a real dinosaur skull! They claim all the actual fossils are kept in high-security storage, but only a select few paleontologists are ever allowed to examine them, so the ability to ascertain their authenticity is kept from the general public.

The real bones are incarcerated in thick vaults to which only a select few highly placed researchers hold a key, which means that NO independent researcher has ever handled a tyrannosaurus rex bone

Only around 2100 dinosaur bones sets have been discovered worldwide ... If dinosaurs had really roamed Earth, we wouldn't only have found 2100 dinosaur bone sets, but millions of bones, with ordinary people tripping over them when digging in their vegetable patches." -Robbin Koefoed, "The Dinosaurs Never Existed"

There may have been an ongoing effort since the earliest dinosaur 'discoveries' to plant, mix and match bones of various animals, such as crocodiles, alligators, iguanas, giraffes, elephants, cattle, kangaroos, ostriches, emus, dolphins, whales, rhinoceroses, etc. to construct and create a new man-made concept prehistoric animal called the dinosaur. Where bones from existing animals are not satisfactory for deception purposes, plaster substitutes may be manufactured and used.

—————-

I'm outta here. I'm turning into a spam-bot. If this doesn't convince you, nothing will. Please don't downvote! Thanks.

@dolphin: The fact is you don't have a convincing alternative to the evolutionary explanation of fossils embedded in limestone strata that is tens and hundreds of millions of years old. Has there been nonsense thanks to the profit motive and the entertainment industry? Of course.
Now tell us what the lufengosaurus remains represent, and how you know, or anyway why you think so.

Who is it you want to believe, if not geologists and paleontologists, and what is wrong with their science, and who explains things better?

Don't get me started on the moon landings.

Dinosaurs can't possibly exist because God made the earth only about 6000 years ago. Scientists are making up the millions of years old claim. Educate yourself, google the carbon dating myth.

@ keebler, I hope you're kidding, but if you're serious, I suggest you start a forum thread on this ("I;ll be glad to kick in my 2 cents' worth), as we've gotten pretty far away from this Neolithic graveyard.

P.S. Dolphin, your dating of 'dinosaurs': "Hua Yang Guo Zhi, a book written by Chang Qu during the Western Jin Dynasty (265–316), reported the discovery of dragon bones at Wucheng in Sichuan Province."
Well, I guess they could have been dragon bones...

@Dolphin I'll give you the credit of saying maybe you're just up for a bit of trolling on an obviously easy issue to push ;o) but I'll slip in a few ideas regarding your thoughts anyway.

>'T Rex is not a real body shape as a creature like that would not be able to stand'
Just think of some modern day body shapes of birds of animals like an ostrich or a kangaroo. T Rex is just a pumped up unevolved bird, the mass might be bigger but so is the muscle to work with. Those smaller, weirdly shaped creatures have no problem with balance.

>the dinosaur factory is in Zigong, Sichuan'
It'd be totally weird if there weren't some fakes on the market! Think of practically every industry you can and they'll have some kind of fakes/dodginess around.

>'In an article titled "A Fossil's Trail From Excavation to Exhibit" one insider remarked that, "Through mold making and casting we can totally fabricate limbs, ribs, vertebrae, etc., for the missing pieces of an articulated skeletal mount.'
Amazes me when people dismiss 10's of thousands of scientifically published work but happily follow anything that has the slight sound of a conspiracy to it. Tell me you're not that guy lol.

>'I think evolution is nonsense.'
Wow lol. Maybe Dinosaurs you could have had a tiny something to argue with but evolution... No! You only need to look at an animal as close to humans as dogs to see how evolution works and then adding to common sense where you can listen to modern science with its DNA sequencing showing how close many modern animals are to each other and to ancient finds!

Evolution is just Marmite!

@alien: "Well, I guess they could have been dragon bones..."

Fire or ice breathing variety? lol

—————-

@redjon

Well said, and to speak nothing of vestigiality of land or marine mammals...

one convenient example would the vestigial pelvic bone or the extra set of fins endowed by dolphins. which perhaps may be remnants of hind limbs.

50 million years earlier, dolphins shared a common ancestor as hippos and deer that roamed the lands on all fours. Like whales, their distant ancestors fared better near water, and eventually beneath it. Granted both dolphins and whales still need to come up to the surface to breathe air with their lungs. They don't have gills like fish.

I'd presume in their gradual transition from land to ocean, their female counterparts would seek out the most impressive males. The most prolific in hunting in shallow or deep waters. Being good swimmers or have longer jaws to scavenge near surface would definitely help. Offspring would endow these traits, incrementally becoming more pronounced over generations. Btw, dolphins still retain a single lower jaw bone common to mammals.

If wolves can evolve into miniature, toy dog breeds in a mere 30,000 years, granted with help of selective breeding. Imagine 50,000,000 years of evolution by natural selection.

————

Based on @dolphin's posts in the past, I don't believe he is completely trolling in regards to the rejection of evolution. If a totally random site like GoK is imparting contradictory knowledge of preconceived world views, you'd think one would start questioning it... which he is. That's a good sign. Science is always such a fascinating topic worth diving into.

Too many points to reply to. I'll try to get back later.

I am not trolling. I like looking into conspiracies. Some of them are crazy. I admit that maybe I have believed some conspiracies that I shouldn't have believed. But that dinosaurs never existed seems plausible to me.

I read the dragon theory. In one article I read, the guy suggested that all the dinosaur findings are in fact dragons. I always thought dragons were mythological creatures that never existed. But it still wouldn't explain why alleged dragon fossils were only found in China ... again, is it just claims by people trying to get rich and famous?

Regarding evolution, please allow me to make a preposterous-sounding statement. If humans "evolve" as scientists claim, ie their body morphs to survive and adapt to their environment, then how come people who are descendants of people living in Siberia for centuries don't have furs on their skin? I'm not trying to be funny. My point is there is no "evolution" as it is presented. Human beings have never been able to tolerate cold climates and our skin will never "evolve" in order for us to be able to survive in cold climates. The only thing that has kept people alive in cold climates is ingenuity in creating fur coats and heating. Species do no morph into other species. Human beings have always been the same as they are now, with minor differences (height, etc...). The human body will never "adapt" to the point that scientists claim.

You''re not funny or entertaining.

@dolphin: "how come people who are descendants of people living in Siberia for centuries don't have furs on their skin?"

Fossil records show our earliest ancestors started out in either Africa or China. It may have took them many generations to migrate outward to Siberia... diversifying across Europe and Asia.

In my above mate-selection analogy in dolphins, perhaps a hairy face & neck weren't attractive traits as they resembled those of our simian cousins or Neanderthals, and were telltale signs of cognitive inferiority.

Those sporting animal furs symbolized power and intellectual prowess needed to survive and thrive in prehistoric harsh environments. Women sought after those men in lieu. Men picked women with less less bodily hair. This merry-go-round stigma ensued. Over generations, full body hair dissipated prior to their arrival in freezing cold Siberia.

If you think stereotyping & racism permeate our societies now, they were pretty nasty hundreds of millennia ago. Heck, humans wiped out the hairy Neanderthals. Just decades ago Hitler nearly succeeded in wiping out the Jews.

@dolphin: "how come people who are descendants of people living in Siberia for centuries don't have furs on their skin?"

The Siberian point has no problems with the Evolution theory! I'll add this little quote to help clarify :

"Decreased body hair began in hominins over 2 million years ago and aided persistence hunting (the ability to catch prey in very long distance chases) in the warm savannas where hominins first evolved. The two main advantages are felt to be bipedal locomotion and greater thermal load dissipation capacity due to better sweating and less hair."

Modern day humans evolved from these guys but 1stly spread out through Africa - Middle East - Asia - Australia. None of these paths requiring a change in the way human evolution had been going regarding body hair. Only 40'000 years ago did they enter Europe during the last ice age but another wave had been going on through Asia and then finally Siberia just about 15,000 years ago and onto the Bering Strait and Americas.
Maybe the fact Europeans experienced real cold 25'000 earlier goes to tell why Europeans are slightly hairier than most as their bodies would've stopped following the thermal dissipation need in evolution as strongly. But my real point is with the Siberians you talk about here it is really obvious when you think about it.. 15'000 years ago when humans were just settling in parts of Siberia they had learnt many skills while coming up through the warm climes which would serve them well in Siberia and fool their bodies into thinking they were still in slightly warmer areas than they were. Obviously, fire is a big one but their knowledge of clothing would've greatly improved, not proving too hard to adapt to thicker clothing with more skill the longer they were there. Off the top of my head, I'd say housing would've of been another contributor to all this as well.

Basically, Siberians bodies stopped following thermal evolution only about 20,000 / 15'000 years ago, (which is not long in the evolution time frame) but unlike other animals, they'd learnt a few tricks on the way to slow any reversal that might start to show over time.

Oh, if you're going to talk of evolution please don't use the word... "centuries" lol. When people talk of land mammals evolving into water-based mammals (maybe 50 million years to what we know now) or apes to humans (maybe 10 million years to current humans from tree-living mammals) they're thinking slightly longer time frames ;o)

Anyway keep it up, I like evolution as a topic, what can be more interesting than thoughts of where we come from :o)

I suppose it is my fault for picking up on Dolphin's remark about lufengosaurus, but note that the point of the article about the graveyard has nothing to do with theories of genetic evolution of different species. The article is about evidence concerning the culture of people - i.e., homo sapiens - in the area several thousand years ago, though of course the bones can be analyzed for analysis of living conditions, food resources, etc. of the people of the time.

Maybe but the area is already known for it as the article says :

"Yuanmou County is already the celebrated home of the eponymously named Yuanmo Man — a distant ancestor of modern humans discovered in 1965. The prefecture also claims Yunnan's one and only Dinosaur Valley (恐龙谷)"

The law of entropy states that a system will loose energy over time, this is why buildings crumble, water runs downhill instead of up, and a rolling ball will eventually stop. So according to evolution, complexity arises from simplicity, that is ludicrous. If I put a pile of legos on a tabletop, I wouldn't expect to see two pieces have joined together by themselves the next day and then 4 after that until it has assembled itself into a car. If I come back and see a car it is because my 4 year old built it, much like God created all the complex life forms.

Some people say there is proof for evolution but in reality, it is proof of devolution. Over time, those that do not live in His Grace, their descendants starts to change into apes and other forms because God created man in His image and those that do not believe in Him will cease to become man and will keep devolving until they become nothing, complexity into simplicity. These so called fossils are simply people that were in the process of devolving when they were wiped out and buried in the flood.

Further proof of this is that animals used to be much bigger thousands of years ago but is much smaller today. Complexity into simplicity

I heard a story about Dinosaur valley, which may or may not be true. The fancy building you see from the highway is not the actual site, but the efforts of a bunch of entrepreneurial locals who wanted to cash in on the nearby site. It is not connected in any way with the archaeological site.

Your interpretation of the law of entropy would also rule out the four-year-old making a model car out of lego, to say nothing of animals and plants turning nutrients into complex structures and organs. .But really I don't know why anyone would bother. discussing your arguments.

ironically it didnt stop you though, did it mate?

keebler, is this supposed to explain the graveyard finds mentioned in the article? If so, how do you know? Are people in Yuanmou County smaller than their ancestors because they do not believe in God? Anyway, where do you get this theory, and what is the evidence? And what makes you think that smaller means simpler? How long is this supposed to take before we notice it in the human remains that have been found? How long ago was the Flood?

Well, let's put it like this Dazzer. Your comment is even more pointless than mine was.

Indeed in the dinosaur valley the guys operating the petrol station and shops around it build their own exhibition hall. The Dinosaur Valley Service station is just before the motorway exit to the real site.
The problem with dinosaur remains is that they are frankly quite boring and therefore a lot of exhibitions like to spice things up a bit so their exhibits look a bit more like Jurassic Park.
A good example is both museums here in town. The Yunnan Provincial Museum tries to stick to a more scientific approach and here you see the naked skeletons while the Kunming Museum has plastic Jurassic Park style replicas.
The official Dinosaur Valley exhibition tried to give a good insight into what was found in that valley but found out as well that people where not interested into a heap of dusty bones so they made an amusement park out of it but even that failed.
Dolphins idea that dinosaurs never existed is of course nonsense. The argument, that if they did exist, then one would stumble all the time over them in your vegetable patch is nonsense as well; remains like this can only survive in special conditions and vegetable patches are not one of them (If so then all vegetable patches in China would be knee deep with pig and chicken bones). Dinosaur remains have been found in large quantities in China but they were called dragon bones. The Chinese word for dinosaur is 恐龙 (Kǒnglóng) meaning fearful dragon.

In the west the existence of dinosaurs is far exceeding 1840. Things heated up later with the competition between Sternberg and Brown and indeed large sums of money got involved. In the last 30 years or so dinosaurs got very popular due to movies like Jurassic Park and most museums could only afford a replica. Since hardly any dinosaur is found complete replica bones are used as well for the missing parts.
To give an idea how much money is involved: Trix the tyrannosaurus rex in the Naturalis Biodiversity Centre in Leiden the Netherlands cost 4.3 million euro in 2014. This for a 75 to 80% complete set of bones. It is now on display with 20 to 25% replica bones.
To think that a museum would pay this amount of money plus the cost of displaying it which included building a new wing to the museum for a fake is preposterous and can only happen in the world of conspiracy theorist.

David Wozney falls in the same category as Gavin Menzies; might be a nice book but total fiction and not based on facts. The.kebler.elf theory is as well based on a book (A book of none scientific value) and not on facts.

Also I am not of Siberian descent (But Caucasian) I have far more body hear then the average Chinese. Did you ever wonder why there is hair on your arms on those places which are exposed with short sleeves but there is a clear reduction in hair intensity on the arm parts that are covered by the short sleeve? An explanation might be that the wearing of clothing stops the hair from growing.

i have no hair on my ankles

Neither do I.

Archaeopteryx: The day the fossil feathers flew www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45967655

Interesting article just today on how museums are able to now spot fakes a lot more convincingly. Surely reading this you'd have to say 'ok dinosaurs

I'm grateful to have learned a thing or two this morning from @red, thanks!

The long-distance bipedal locomotion of modern humans is quite impressive, rivaling some of the most prolific distance runners in the animal kingdom. It makes sense to gradually abandon hairy insulation to make way for more sweat glands, which outnumber those of animals. Sweating is an effective natural body cooling system. Particularly useful when chasing food or being chased by rival clans. Otherwise crashing mid-chase like an overheated CPU may be detrimental... not only for the runners, but for the women & children relying on them for food or protection.

——————-

@lemon "An explanation might be that the wearing of clothing stops the hair from growing."

So either you're bald like a lemon in the nether regions, or you waddle about Spring City without underpants like Donald Duck. Both scenarios are quite disturbing. lol

@ Bilingual
Rest assured I don't go around naked.
I don't have an explanation as well for why hair grows in that region other than that hair has a protective function as well and these parts are rather delicate.

Lemon,
Your argument is false. You think 4.3 million is a lot? It's pocket change for billionaires. And besides, they make profit off it. It's called an investment and it takes money to make money. So it doesn't prove they're all fakes, but your argument doesn't disprove anything.

Thanks Dolphin for clearing this up. Trix the Tyrannosaurus Rex was financed by crowd funding and got most of its money from children. Dutch TV provided free publicity and the largest supermarket chain in the Netherlands held special promotions and even the postal service issued special stamps. And now we have to inform all of these that they bought a fake made in China from ground up chicken bones held together with resin.
I will inform all of them that they have been deceived. I will inform as well the US District Court of Montana and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in the US that they have been dealing with a fake and therefore will have to annul their ownership rulings.
All will be very thankful to "The Great Dolphin" for setting things straight (And his humble messenger Mr Lemon who past on the words of this Great Prophet).

Sorry Dolphin, I tried but failed. Nobody in the Netherlands and the US wanted to listen to me. These Dutchees at the museum said they knew and that's why they didn't put their own money in it. The US guys where to busy right now with pipe-bombs and things like that.
I can understand that they don't take the word from a simple messenger but if you, our great Prophet, go there yourself then I am sure they will listen.

Or they might kill me.
I have to end my gokunming account here as this is devolving into personal attacks.

Well I looked into David Wozney, "Dinosaurs: Science or Science Fiction" a bit further and the only references I got where from conspiracy theory websites like:
mysteriousearth.net
which has articles like "The first Human-pig hybrid has been created, secrets of the pyramids that will change the world and a lady claiming that she has been raped by aliens and that NASA has confirmed that earth has a new moon.
atlanteanconspiracy.com
Their mission is: Exposing the 'Global' Conspiracy from Atlantis to Zion
Their favicon (The little picture that appears on the tabs of browsers) looks very much like that of Breitbart.
christianflatearthministry.org

Which gives us the plane truth about the flat earth
And the very useful:
ocii.com/~dpwozney/dinosaurs.htm
which gives instructions on how to make your own dinosaur out of chicken bones.

Well I am impressed and now totally convinced that the Great Dolphin must be right and from now on I will follow him and belief every word he writes.

@Dolphin
Don't worry, I will go with you and protect you. I will follow my prophet everywhere even to evil places like the Netherlands.