There arent regulated means to find schools, companies, bosses, teachers and/or employees who demonstrate unethical behavior, poor work ethics, fraud or something more serious.

If youre seeking a job or hiring, this space serves to blacklist those with proven offenses.

It helps everyone in KM make more informed decisions about their work environment.

Not sure if your potential boss is legit?

Think your employee has a history of lying?

Know anyone who does?

Let me know if you'd like to be added to the group and be informed in this growing community. Let me know you found me here and I'll add you to "Blacklisted in Kunming"

Wechat: Chris7148583943

I tried starting a discussion thread on KM Foreign Teacher's Job Market

but it seems to not have passed the censors so I'll try again here.

Apologies to the OP for semi-hijacking your thread but the topic is along the same vein.

Having talked to many foreign English teachers and seeing the plethora of job posting by local touts here, I really would like to discuss the reality of teaching English in China, and specifically in Kunming.

I've read through the forums and the main complaint seems to be: the schools are not paying enough, the job conditions are horrible, the owners are unscrupulous business-devils, expectations are unrealistic and yet, most seem to stay in their jobs (or Kunming) regardless, always looking to jump ship for a better paying job.

On the flip side, the schools believes the foreign teachers are overpaid, unprofessional, inflexible, and unreliable. Yet I see the same companies keep advertising the same job positions with no change to their compensation package despite obviously not being able to retain their previous hire.

So, given the two opposing viewpoints which one is more reasonable? Who's expectations are more unrealistic? Do your average foreign teacher deserve the salary they feel they are entitled to? Are the schools simply not paying enough to make it worth while for the teachers to put in the effort? Or will English teaching in China be forever relegated to the realm of the traveling circus and the snake oil salesman?

Any thoughts?

"the schools are not paying enough"

How much is enough?

You want to start a thread of opinions, rife with misunderstood situations, anger, wild accusations, written by all sorts of people from serious reflective trained, experienced teachers to unqualified, irresponsible, flakes.

It is like talking only one of a divorced couple. Everything is suspect.

In China, it is easy to be nailed for spreading rumors and easy to libel. You are willing to put GoK at risk for this? Start your own website.

Sorry Geezer, not trying to offend and it is not my intention to spread libel.

As I've stated, the opinions are not mine, only what I've gathered from the multiple threads on this website. If my understanding of the gist of the teacher's general complaints are incorrect then I apologize.

As to how much is enough, that is one of the main points of discussion I would like to engage in. The schools believe they are paying too much for too little service while teachers believe they are paid too little for what they deliver, so who's argument is more valid?

As to spreading rumors, I'm lost on that point. I don't see how my inquisition is spreading rumors? Or is it best to just not discuss anything remotely controversial?

First there is a need to distinguish between working at a college or university and working at a training school - very big difference.

Training schools will never change - this is the business model in China - all about profits - quantity (Filling the classes) - as opposed to quality (Good teachers).

The owners do NOT care about keeping good teachers around - they are looking for the lowest bid and those who work illegally or are here on student and tourists visas are their main target because both parties benefit and no one stays in for the long haul. As you mentioned in your post - these people are completely unreliable and unprofessional.

Those who do live in China (Kunming) are usually much older and they are NOT suited for the schools target group which are 4-12 year old students. The schools are looking for young entertainers, not quality teachers.

My chinese wife teaches at home and we know all about the training schools because all kids go to one of these schools at one time or another. In their 6 month to 1 year stay at a school the students will see anywhere from 3 to as many as 12 different laowai teachers because they just come and go through the revolving door.

As this is your first post here on GK I have a few questions for you:

How old are you?
How long do you plan to stay?
Do you need a visa?

If you are older - 50+ - schools do not really want you because their main target group is very young kids. For that age you will be better suited for middle/high/adult learners - not the primary school crowd.

The other 2 questions are pretty obvious. I know of a school with a good rep that is in need of a teacher right now and they can offer a visa.

As for credentials and experience. I recommend attending any of the 1 month TEFL/TESOL and others classes. Any moron can get an online certificate and I think it is a very good experience to mingle with others in an actual class. I still keep in touch with some folks I met 13 years ago when I attended the TEFL class in Zhuhai, Guangdong.

Hi HFCAMPO,

What you've said is correct, and in hindsight, maybe this discussion was relevant only in my mind about 10 minutes ago after my 10th cup of coffee. Perhaps the job market as I've stated is too varied and different for it to be generalized into one and that probably doomed the discussion from the onset.

I guess I was looking at it from the perspective of an average job seeker. If I was looking for a job, what would be fair compensation for my time and is it a rate that the market will bear.

The best analogy I can think of is if a guy went to a Ferrari dealership looking for a commuter car. Even after the deal offered a 50% discount the buy still balks at the "high price". From both perspectives they are correct, the car is both a good deal and too expensive.

Now, is this the situation that we have in Kunming and China? Is it a fundamental problem of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole where in the end no one can be happy no matter the solution?

And I do realize this could all just be in my head and no one else feels the same way, but I wouldn't know until I asked, right?

To answer you question, I'm not looking for a job or a visa. I'm in my late 40s and will be in Kunming for a few years or maybe not depending on where life takes me.

@Hcampo
Very good points. If you look at some of the ads here they even put age limits and want a picture too (make sure your white enough). These training centers are looking for the cheapest and youngest and the pretty/handsome 'teacher', not necessarily what experience or qualification you have.

Should any of these training schools be blacklisted?

Just rereading your post above HFCAMPO, based on your observations, does that mean older foreigners are simply not welcomed in the job market and we would be beating a dead horse for trying to change it?

Is the take away from all this is that teaching in China is mainly for the young or the foolish and will be tossed aside once they are used up?

What job options do a older experienced foreign teachers have and what is a reasonable pay range?

I retired at 38 so I don't need the money teaching english - I am married to a lovely chinese woman so I don't need a visa.

I know some over age 60+ laowai who teach english and they are very reliable and very professional but they teach the older crowd - not young kids. Their schools are very happy with them and they are happy with their schools - so both parties are happy. Age is not really a problem if you behave in a professional manner and you know your business.

When you say job market I am assuming you only mean teaching english, as this is the topic at this time.

I enjoyed teaching when I first arrived but the problem is that out of 100 students, you will be lucky if you find 1 who actually wants to LEARN. This is for both private training schools or colleges and universities - they just want their score and pass a test but don't give a hoot about actually learning anything.