@mmunkunmingteacher
I've said all I needed to say in my previous posts, but since you've called me out by name, I decided to respond in kind.

I cannot speak for others but I do not attack people (unless attack upon), I attack stupid ideas and preconceptions. I got involved in the "cultural colonialism" thread that you've started because you are arguing that foreigners living in China and by extension, me, who enjoy a "Western" lifestyle is perpetuating the moral sin of "cultural colonialism", an idea that is preposterous. After much back and forth in which you cannot provide a satisfactory argument or rebuttal to my claims, you admitted that it was only an personal opinion NOT backed by academic research as you originally claimed. Ok, fine, topic closed, let's all move on.

However, the egomaniac that is you cannot move one and now you wish to engage me on the topic of monthly expenses, one which I shall oblige one last time since, as you claim, this will be your swan song.

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The problems with your arguments, mm, and the reason why they fall apart, is that you are making false assumption in your arguments. You believe that there is such a creature as an expat that hates every aspect of Chinese culture, live a 100% Western lifestyle completely devoid of all contact with anything Chinese. THERE IS NO SUCH THING! You have yet to produce such an expat for us to examine. You are constantly comparing apples to oranges.

CASE IN POINT:
Nobody east breakfast, lunch, and dinner at a Western restaurant everyday; nobody goes to a bar every night to drink beer much less a western bar and imported beer; nobody drinks coffee every day at a western place.

So already your calculations of 330/day * 30days = 9,900 is already wrong. And on top of that you tacked on: 1000/week for import food (why would we need import food since we are already eating breakfast, lunch, and dinner at a western restaurant is beyond me); and 1000/month for imports snacks and miscellaneous. According to you, that would be 15,000/month for living expenses. Show me one expat that spends that much consistently on a monthly basis. You arguments are self-contradictory and not grounded in reality.

You argue to live like a local, fine, that's your belief and no one will argue with that, but at the same time, don't criticize our lifestyle as if you are better than the rest of us. But since you called me out to discuss this then I shall debunk your arguments once again.

The first problem with your argument is that you did not define what is "the local lifestyle". By local style do you mean like my rich local friends? Driving a imported sports car, drinking the finest wine, Nike, Louie Vuitton, Armani from head to toe? Or you mean like my elderly neighbor who scrapes by on a 800/month pension? But, for argument sake, let's take a typical middle class working person in the late 20's. So what is the stereotypical lifestyle? Here is a typical breakdown:

Income: 3000/month
Shopping: 1000-2000/month
Dining out with friends: 500-1500/month
Entertainment (Clubs, movies, bars):500-1500/month
Others:1000-3000/month

Some of my friends would stay within their means but are essentially living from month-to-month, others uses credit cards to sustain their spending habits. Point being, the typical "local lifestyle" for someone of comparable age is no where the lifestyle you espouse.

The second problem with your arguments is that you don't take into account the quality of life. The lifestyle you keep pushing down people's throats might be acceptable to you, but for your typical expat/tourist, this is not experiencing China, this is barely living in China. For many of us, to spend 1 year in China is probably a once in a lifetime kind of deal. So after a year of the lifestyle you proposed, what will we have experienced, what it's like to be a local? Fu*k that, I'm here to experience China not to settle down.

I could even go one further and say you are completely out of your mind mmkunmingteacher, you are spending waaaaaayyy! too much. Instead of budgeting 20-25/day, you could essentially live for free. Haven't you noticed that every time you walk by a mixian place, there will always be a half-eaten bowl of noodles? All you do is sit down at the table before the servers clean it up and viola! free meal. Shelter? This is the Spring City for heavens sake, just lay down on the ground when you get tired, the weather is very mild, makes for a very comfortable night. And why pay for a bus when God gave you two legs. Seriously mm, you should experience what it's like to live like a bum in China, it is a worthwhile experience. You can't say you've lived in China unless you've begged for food at least once.

So, to sum up. You have the right to have an opinion about anything you want, you can have your belief system, you can even share those opinions and beliefs, but don't talk down to us as if you are better than us and that your beliefs are better then ours. And also don't go around giving advice as if you know what you are talking about because clearly you don't. One thing that truly bothers me is the dispensing of mis-information as if it is the Gospel. When asked about living expenses, instead of getting to know the background of the person asking the question, your knee-jerk reaction is "live like a local!" I would hate to get food advice from you because you'd only recommend what you'd like and not what I would like.

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As as for @Alien, since mmkunmingteacher is not here to defend his arguments, and it would appear that you have taken up his mantle, I invite you to respond with a rebuttal if you feel anything I have said is unfair or untrue.

Ciao~

PS:
The definition of a troll is:"One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument"

You might not believe you are a troll, @mmkunmingteacher, but it would appear that any thread you appear in, "maximum disruption and argument" would breakout. Since you keep saying we don't know what a troll is, why don't you provide a definition.

now alien presumes to teach us, lmfao

@ Dazzer "Us" ? Dont include me there. I think Alien has a genuinely open mind. Id be happy to learn something from him.

^ Same. Somehow, animals and visitors from outer-space populating this forum always make delightfully interesting posts.

I guess, mmteacher is not a math teacher :-DD
Metro, Pauls and imported goods = 5000kuai per month. Who can eat that much??

Who drinks 3 bottles of beer every night, every day of the month? Alcoholics do, but the rest doesnt...

Another thing. I like to eat honey. Honey from the street vendor 35kuai per jar. Honey from the Chinese honey shop 40kuai. Honey from Carrefour imported goods section 40kuai.
Most of the time I buy imported goods, because I dont trust the Chinese products here. I never buy Chinese milk or dairy and anything else that could contain high levels of chemicals, pesticides... The Chinese government just had to admitt that 60% of the groundwater is severly contaminated as well as two third of its land. You dont need to be a biology teacher to realize that these things will also find its way into your food.
Most of the time Monsieur teacher is speaking of MALE foreigners. Well, he already laid bare his attitude and opinion about women o_O

Agree with Daithi, Alien is one of the few on here that has something to say, and is able to say it without being needlessly provocative.

@mPRin: Granted that there may be universal agreement about some elements of lifestyle, but if lifestyles are different, why apply the standards of your 'home' lifestyle to decide what is higher or lower in terms of a different lifestyle somewhere else?

But actually I believe that both you and I are a bit unclear about what we mean by standards and lifestyles, both of which can be changed as we learn of new possibilities. Would seem to me that standards are not sacred, or anyway that they are not necessarily so. And they're not necessarily one-dimensional (high/low, more/less, quantitative, etc.)

@Tonyaod, obviously the point about mmkunming's calculations is to demonstrate more or less extreme possibilities, not to draw up an exact budget for anybody. I think he did that. You seem to be more interested in picking apart the way he says things than in dealing with the issues he brought up. Right - the way he writes is sometimes less than perfect, but to waste one's time attacking it often seems to be a conscious attempt to avoid the issues entirely. If he sometimes presented issues in black & white terms, that's not much different from what other contributors do. Obviously, no foreigner here really lives in a complete bubble, from which one might observe (and misinterpret) 'China' constantly and get into all kinds of self-centered rages (cabbies, food, etc.), and nobody becomes a complete local, but to spend any time away from home and not be changed by it at all because one insists on staying inside a self-affirming bubble & looking out without going out (I'm making an extreme point here, ok?) is pretty much a waste. Fortunately, however, things do not always go according to plan, so there's always the possibility that the individual may be surprised into learning something, no matter how much he tries not to.
But all of this is becoming overblown, and the concentration on fixing blame for it on particular individuals and then bothering to insult them is, imho, a stupid priority engaged in primarily by those who are more interested in winning word battles than in either teaching or learning or discovering anything.

@Alien,

What what is the point of discussion if it isn't really about mm's attitude and wild accusations? What issue is he bringing up? That some foreigners live in a *less than perfect* Western bubble and doesn't absorb the culture as much as others? Or as you say, wasted their opportunity? Is it really worth discussing, how people live their lives here in China?

And please don't take offense, I'm not trying to start an argument, just merely making a point. If you look at the way mm words his arguments, by no way were they benign as you see it. His intent is not to have an honest discussion of the topic but to brag about his accomplishments. That is fine and all, we all do a little bragging online once in a while. However, when the bragging doesn't bring the attention the craves, mm begin to start multiple posts about things people don't care about. Once people got tired of that and started to snicker, he plays the victim and throws a tantrum; this is how the the seeds of animosity were sown.

Another example of his trollish behavior is posting a message about his perceived livable budget here and before any real discussion can take place, he started a new thread to announce his departure. Does that sounds like a man who is genuinely interested in a discussion or an egomaniac?

You can't try to soften his language to find the message underneath, there is no message, the words are his message. It's like you can't downplay a bully's behavior by saying he didn't really mean to hurt anyone, his is only expressing his internal turmoil.

If we are not about arguing the validity of mm's accusation but on a topic based on re-interpretation, then is it still worth discussing? Start a thread on "How much Chinese culture should one absorb in China" and see how many responses you get.

BTW, you had given mm a chance to explain himself and even offered him an out by saying what he meant was cultural arrogance and not "cultural colonialism", but did he take it? He really means exactly what he says.

In an argument, I cannot go about looking for hidden messages, when someone makes an argument, I have to take them at face value. So when he said we foreigners are committing "cultural colonization" by living a foreign lifestyle, I can't re-interpret that as meaning cultural arrogance. I make my argument against his claim and if he realizes his premise was wrong, he should've corrected it and steered the argument towards a different direction, instead, he clings to he original arguments and proceeds to make even more preposterous arguments.

The point of mm's calculations in this thread is NOT to demonstrate extreme possibilities as you believe, but to falsify facts so that his arguments look stronger, and THAT, is being disingenuous. Should I counter back with my own "extreme possibility" then? That a local lifestyle include driving a Ferrari, owning 5 apartments, having a personal chef, nanny, and housekeeper? We'd end up arguing over extreme hypothetical situations that would not relevant to the topic and be completely useless.

So in conclusion, the reason so many people get so worked up over mm is that he is trying to stir things up by making wild statements and false accusations; when that doesn't work, he would make even more controversial statements until he gets the desired affect. If you don't believe me, go back and re-read his posts and notice how it has changed over a short period of time.

One final thought:

I agree that "all of this is becoming overblown, and the concentration on fixing blame for it on particular individuals and then bothering to insult them is, imho, a stupid priority engaged in primarily by those who are more interested in winning word battles than in either teaching or learning or discovering anything." However that being the case, why do you feel a need to defend and apologize for mm? Did he not also engage in this behavior? And have you not also been sucked in now with a desire to have the last word and "winning [this] word battle"? Food for thought

@Tonyoad: to me the point or points he wants to make are indeed obvious. As for his personality or personal faults or whatever, I have no interest in discussing them one way or the other, nor am I interested in your personality (here, on a forum), so you might consider not exhibiting it all the time. And this goes for mmkunming and anybody else.