Good afternoon boys, nice to see my topic has stirred some lively debating:) though not always about drinking. Its seems AA has attracted some detractors, and is open to criticism. Also mentioned in the preamble is - it does not wish to engage in any controversy : neither endorses or opposes any causes. I will endevour to do that here. I will only share my experience with you. When I came to AA, I was 35, married to a woman I didn't love, working a job with no prospects. My dream in life was to die from a fatal heart attack, when I was about 55, drinking a bottle of Brandy, smoking a joint and having sex. Not much of an ambition ah!! Trouble was at 35, I wanted to die 20 years premature of my dream. Instead, I went to AA and discovered my was an alcoholic and embarked on the 12 steps of recovery. One old guy at the meeting said, " ah son, you can leave here tonight and never need to drink again" I have found this to be true I my case. This year I will be 55, I have no desire to pop my clogs for a good few years yet. Since getting sober, my now ex wife and I have parted on extremely friendly terms, I was able to give her everything. I was able to look after one of her children for 3 years. I went to University at the age of 40 and obtained a degree, I trained to become a teacher, learnt to drive, and I'm in the process of opening my own business here in Kunming. I also have a considerable amount of inner peace than I ever experienced before. To me, and me only, this is beyond my wildest dreams. I have also realized that I give my own meaning to life and words. The word insanity has several meaning for me. I like to define it as - doing the same action and expecting a different results. My thinking, with regards to drinking was not that of a sane mind. About 17 years ago now, I was standing outside in a storm smoking a cigarette, getting cold and wet, as I wasn't allowed to smoke in the building. I thought to myself, this is insane. This little substance rules my life so much, that I will do this to appease it. Also there is not one benefit from smoking, but there I was poisoning my body with it. For me, I think insanity was a suitable definition for my actions. I got sober and maintain my sobriety by having fellowship with other like minded recovered alcoholic. AA does not hold the monopoly on getting drunks sober, whatever means is successful for an alcoholic to get sober that's fantastic. By helping another alcoholic get sober I increases my chances of living a sober, happy meaningful life. Now that's more of a worthwhile ambition. Catch you soon, cheers Bill.

Regarding all of the off topic comments on this thread, it is important to remember that AA is for /alcoholics/, and if you are not an alcoholic it is probably irrelevant to you unless you are living with, friends with, or working with one. Alcoholism is not just 'heavy drinking,' it is a chronic, destructive disease of the body and mind that progressively gets worse, never better. Anyone would not like to see a befuddled sufferer of alcoholism get better and makes jokes about it is either callous or sadly insecure about his own self (imo). If you are not an alcoholic and are just bored enough to play the antagonist on forums I would suggest that there are far better things to do with your life. Thank you Flying Horse for reaching out to people whose lives may depend on it. And one more note about religion and AA: "AA is not allied with any sect or denomination..."

I agree. It sad the way people turn a thread that is a serious issue into something that they 'troll' on. The OP is offering to support those that need support with a serious issue.

Congratulations on getting sober and improving your life.

I'm interested to know what goes on at these meetings. Are you forced to read "The Big Book"?

Here's a quote from the founder:
"Alcoholics especially should be able to see that instinct run wild in themselves is the underlying cause of their destructive drinking. ... This perverse soul-sickness is not pleasant to look upon."

Wow! Soul-sickness! It seems like this book is brainwashing people who drink to feel like worthless, bad people by breaking down their ego and drilling negative stereotypes about alcoholics into their mind.

So first they dis-empower you by making you feel like you're a bad person. Then, they suggest that since you're powerless, you need God to rescue you. So now they've broken down your ego and the next step is to break down your self-reliance. You need outside help.

And who is the God of the 12 steps? Why, AA itself is God of course. And your sponsor is your own personal God, controlling every detail of your life and telling you when to pee until you get better and heal from your 'soul sickness'.

Is it not true that they insist that people keep going to AA meetings even many years after not having had a drink? Isn't that a form of dependency/control the group exerts over people?

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there's brainwashing, manipulation and control going on.

You may have stopped drinking, but you lost part of your dignity in the process.

Sorry, please don't reply and tell me how much of a horrible human being I am for bashing AA since people need to get better from their drinking problems. AA is not God. And there are other ways to deal with drinking problems.

AA seems to preach self-contempt, self-loathing, being denigrated, denigrating yourself in front of others, subjecting yourself to the control of someone who has gone through the 12 steps and is less "sick" than you are.

The programs sounds sick to me.

This is my last post in this thread.

For people thinking of joining AA, I leave you with quotes of people who have been in AA:

www.expaa.org/apps/forums/topics/show/8091788

AAers have a wonderful way of turning every situation around and making it YOUR FAULT for everything wrong in life.

In AA, everything is your fault. Controlling AA members are more than willing to throw it in your face every chance they get. It is those of us with the most problems who are susceptible, and vulnerable to AA's brainwashing tactics. AA tries to make you crazy with fear and self-doubt... It's part of the indoctrination process.

The crap these people in the rooms come out with is nothing but abuse. The anger of these self-righteous nut-jobs is bordering on violence. I have a friend though I am not so sure anymore about him who hs 18 years in the cult & I fear he is lost forever in that crap. He is bordering on pathetic at this stage. The cult robs people of their self-esteem & intelligence.

You got raped cos you are an alcoholic now look at your part in it... some of the crap I heard in rooms was insane to say the least. Like religion it tries to beat you down for your sins etc.

Notice how all the old-timers are bat-shit crazy & angry. Wilson himself thought he was continuing the work of jesus christ ffs...and he thought he was the reincarnation of a monk in the 16th century. AA is the doctrine of a madman.

AA is full of lunatics, liers,And fundamentalist religionists . If I expressed that I was unhappy or was struggling with something.their only answer was I wasnt working the program right,or to pray about it. Im an athiest. read the chapter to the agnostics? I read it and felt nothing but insulted. Old Bill W. sure propogated his bullshit on alot of people.

"After browbeating you, sexually harassing you, bullying you, etc., and making you feel upset, hurt, pissed, etc., AAers say that "nobody can make you feel *anything* at all. Your feelings are your own..."

That's a special type of abuse called gaslighting.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

Although I didn't have a name for it then, I recognized this in AA because I've been treated this way before and it's really insidious. After a while of it you might truly start to question everything you think and feel and it truly can make you crazy. But that's what they want. People who are off balance in that kind of way are so much easier to control,

sorry, one more post...
there's actually a site called Leaving AA to help people get out.

leavingaa.com/[...]

Years of horror. Years of being belittled, harassed, and told what to do by some member who knew less then us and still was unemployed and insane after decades in AA. We sat in smoky rooms, cleaned coffee cups when we didn't even drink coffee, experiencing abusive crazy batshit 13 stepping older creepy men and women for far too long.

here are some alternatives to AA:

Some of us ran to (Smart Recovery) some to (Rational Recovery) around over 20 years by Founder Jack Trimpy. Some of us ran to (Women for Sobriety) and some to SOS (Secular for Sobriety).

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can go on angry rants, slander, and uncover conspiracies in organizations they know absolutely nothing about. You started the thread asking about it and one day later you 'know' all about it and are scaring away people with the capacity to judge for themselves. It seems to me that you are the control freak here. And being a non-alcoholic non-drinker, how could you possibly even relate? What this guy says about AA are a a lot of distortions he picked up off of people who had bad experiences. Are there 'controlling' people in AA? There are controlling people everywhere. You don't have to sit next to them or call them. If AA doesn't work for you you don't have to stay. 'There's the door' as they say. Alcoholics are some of the most willful people around; they are not particularly susceptible to being brainwashed or religion. They are usually intent on doing things their own way. Most want to regain control over their lives. AA works best for people who despite their mightiest efforts cannot control their drinking (usually a LOT of uncontrollable drinking, more than the average human should ever have to swallow) and whose drinking is destroying their lives perhaps leading to death, certainly a desperately lonely life leading to an early grave. There is nothing 'normal' or manageable about the way an alcoholic drinks. If you really want to see the effects of chronic alcoholism go to the hospitals and morgues and visit the the divorced or abandoned broken families. The Big Book as its known was not written for non-alcoholics (though their spouses would understand). If an alcoholic finds sobriety through AA or another rehab group then it is a celebration. ANYTHING is better than that kind of drinking and since you are not an alcoholic or a professional working with alcoholic I don't see how you are in a position to understand any of this. You're just a bully scaring off people who might actually need help. Who want a new life. From where I sit, I submit that your tirade has done far greater harm than good toward reaching out to those with an illness the pain and hopelessness of you obviously have no conception of whatsoever.

sorry for all the typos- was a bit heated. using both 'he' and 'you' i was addressing the same poster.

My posts are merely presenting grievances by former AA members (which may or may not be valid), but which will alert people to potential problems with AA.

And if AA is as bad as some of these testimonies point out, then I may be helping some people who would have joined AA blindly by helping them to avoid the same grief that so many AA members seem to be expressing.

If AA is not as bad as these testimonies claim, am I doing a disservice by dissuading people from joining AA who would otherwise get helped? Yes, maybe. However, people are free to ignore the rants or investigate them further.

Also, most people think that AA is the only option out there. I have given out the names of other organizations that people can look into.

Yes, fair enough. I myself would like to add that alcoholism isn't the only thing people are suffering. We need all the good social resources we can get. I really hope though that a person's decision to attend AA will be continent on your posts alone though! : )

I will say one thing just for everyone's information. Despite suspicions that AA is some kind of religious cult, AA members themselves are more often than agnostically bent than not and I've heard no one say they believe that AA itself was God. Bill Wilson was an atheist most of his and converted to Christianity but he did not think he was anything more than a drunk helping other drunks. He did consider getting sober a 'miracle' and I don't think that's inaccurate. I imagine, as the principle founder of AA he had a big ego, but I guess I would too if I did something that big.