Pullman Lijiang Resort & Spa


Huntsman - Fraud??

JJ and Janice (324 posts) • 0

How Can Huntsman Be President When He Allowed His Consular Officials (Chengdu China) To Commit Fraud On Chinese Students?

While Huntsman was serving as U.S. Ambassador to China his Consular Officials (Chengdu in particular) committed fraud on Chinese students applying for visas.

A fee was charged - - and certain documents were required. It was implied (if not actually stated) that Consular officials would look at the required documents before making a decision on visa. Many times two minutes or less were used in conducting the "visa interview" without any notice/discussion regarding documents.

Students denied a visa were told they could re-apply - - and, of course, pay more fees. The re-application interview with even more documents would go the same way as the first - - mere seconds and then denied again.

This treatment was reported (A) to Ambassador Huntsman with details (B) provided separately.

In answer to my query to the State Department, a Mister Harold Woodley replied,(C) "Consular officers examine each application individually to determine whether the applicant qualifies for visa issuance according to U.S. immigration law and regulations, and the interview consists of sufficient questions to allow applicants to present their circumstances. In doing this, the officer takes into consideration an applicants' entire situation, including family, community, professional, property, and economic ties to the applicant's home country as well as prior travel history and any ties to the United States." There is no way all that could be examined in a two-minute interview - - and without even looking at all the documents.

This fraud was reported to the Embassy (GAO FraudNET) and assigned Control Number 56155.(D) A reply on 25 Oct 2011 stated, "We reviewed your information and found that the situation you describe is not within the scope of any on-going GAO work." Further info re: fraud contained in (E) One legal opinion: Torts. When facts are sucessfully established ( by indirect evidence/ by way of Res Ipsa Loquirur in such a denial when strict adherence, not just by the Chinese citizen applicant, but here by a U.S (honorable status) citizen, then under Federal Torts Claim Act it is reasonably foreseeable that the U.S. District Court would rule the individual consulate liable. The U.S. Embassy here is NOT OFF the HOOK just yet, under the Doctrine of Respondeate Superior, the Embassy may be found vicariously liable for the conduct performed by its employee. It is often so ruled, in circumstances where the employee was found to have acted with the intent to benefit his employer, even if the method he chose was not wise, or even forbidden by his employer, such conduct still found to be imputed to the master for whose interest he served. Thus both employer-the embassy, and the employee—the U.S. consulate in question would be found liable.

So if Mister Huntsman allowed all this to happen while he was in charge, how can he be qualified to be President of the United States??

The writer is a U.S. citizen, former US Navy (SEAL) officer - medically discharged as Lieutenant Commander. Currently living in Kunming, Yunnan, China.

Personal info:
J.J. Fletcher
Building 17 # 702
Feng Huang Cheng
Bei Chen Xiao Qu
Kunming, Yunnan 650224

YuantongsiYuantongsi (716 posts) • 0

If it makes you feel any better,,I have heard the Aussie embassy often rejects visa applications the first time round,,"then if people are really keen" they re-apply (read pay the application fee again) and the visa section then looks at the application again,,maybe more seriously the second time around,,,

While Chinese still need visas to travel to most countries,,then I guess this situation will never change.

Embassy Visa Offices in China are real money maker for embassies. Unlike other government departments where the majority of funding comes from Taxes these departments actually generate a lot of cash.

In my experience ringing the ambassadors secretary often works to get things done. It seems the Ambassdor takes messages from their secretary more seriously then a direct call.

laotou (1714 posts) • 0

Ah...sorry - I forgot to mention - when you report potential fraud to the GAO - they'll try to sweep it under the rug by blowing smoke. If the government did actually initiate an investigation - they'd just hang one of the lower level staff as a scapegoat.

I saw this behavior consistently in aerospace and other military contract work. As for the Latin tort crap - that's a significant amount of smoke blowing (chinese would call it "dog fart").

If you're feeling particularly evangelistic on this topic - there's a legal trick where you file a class action lawsuit (since you were directly impacted) and see if you can get one of the nastier hollywood-ish attorney's to pick up the case either pro-bono or contingency-based they get paid from the proceeds).

The government HATES, LOATHES, and DESPISES class action lawsuits because it's a big poop-storm and politicians flee from poop storms.

Truthfully - I'd like to see you get some satisfaction out of this as the State Department has been nickel and dime-ing it's citizens for decades. We can send over USD 2 billion to Iraq in cash - have it promptly lost (I call it stolen) - and yet we little people still have to pay for our passports, medical care, etc ad infinitum. I have great difficulty believing we need to pay these fees to offset government operating costs when we see the rampant fraud, waste, and abuse of our hard(ly) earned taxes.

Not intending to offend violent rape victims - but I'm sure this akin to unprotected and coerced sodomy...and I won't even begin to address the current social security fraud, the bank bailouts (fooled me twice!), and affordable to free medical care for all except we taxpayers...(jailed criminals get free medical care, room, board, laundry services, etc ad infinitum).

But I rant on...go JJ!! To misquote Bill Murray (when he got kicked off a golf course for being...well...Bill Murray), as a retiree - you don't have a regular day job...so please feel free to make their lives incredibly and amazingly "colorful".

laotou (1714 posts) • 0

On another note - you MAY want to pursue the individual consular officer for fraud and or negligence - but government officials are usually insulated from these crimes by various laws designed to ... well - insulate government officials from laws that apply to we little people.

You'd have to prove (somehow) that they did NOT perform their fiduciary duties as specified by Mr. Harold Woodley.

Crucifying a government official as a scapegoat can also serve as a reminder that government employees are not "above the law"...they are - but we little folk can chaff under the yoke.

But - I really believe the "shock and awe" campaign of a class action suit - although more time consuming - will produce significantly more flavor - the goal being the refund of fraudulently obtained fees.

The reason I'm all uppity about this is China tends to be reciprocal - and I'm shuddering the impact should China decide to reciprocate with the same percentage of first time application rejections...Visa fees for US citizens in China are the highest - if you've ever been fortunate enough to see the schedule of fees at the immigration office (immigration officer showed it to me once in Beijing when explaining why the Chinese visa was so damned expensive - it was reciprocal to US Visa fees).

If this is how the US intends to balance the trade deficit...which is actually believable...it's a sad sad day....

aiyaryarr (122 posts) • 0

US civil "servants" (there I go with an inappropriate word again, the correct word should be "idiots") whether on the Federal, State or City levels, with minor exceptions, seem to behave pretty much like the New York State DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) clerks in NYC - What we often refer to as the "museum guard" mentality – certified incompetent but overzealous in the performance of their limited duties (though the current flock of DMV clerks seem to have made some slight attitude adjustments for the better upon my most recent visit to renew my driver license).

In a casual conversation, my NYC attorney once related a story about how the US Embassy staff was unwilling to provide assistance or information to help him (a native New Yorker & US citizen) find a doctor in Tel Aviv for an emergency medical condition back in the early 1980s. I guess nothing much has changed in the last 30 years. The US State Department is full of imbeciles, who are not in the service for the good of the country or its citizens, but rather use their position to bully everyone in their path to feed their egos. Even worse are the local (non-US origin) consulate employees, who probably mimic these imbeciles to act as if they are the interpreter and sole enforcers of US policies instead (But as I've said previously, that's an interesting topic for another thread).

Such persistent arrogance to feed personal egos not only upsets all citizens but continues to do irreparable damage to the USA image in the world. Honest self examination, evaluation and follow up attitude adjustment at the State Department are long overdue!

Hillary, are you listening?

timkunming (87 posts) • 0

Is it possible that all these limits on visas are to discourage so many Chinese students from applying to American universities? Clearly, there's some sort of conflict of interest...the universities would love to have all of these Chinese students paying full tuition (often made by corrupt parents here), and the US government is worried about educating an entire generation's worth of wealthy young Chinese, who probably have every intention to bring back the skills they'll learn to China in order to benefit their mother country.

I've been helping Chinese students to apply for US F1 visas for years, and in my experience there are several aspects about this situation that I've always found rather alarming (please keep in mind this does not apply to ALL of them):

1. Their parents are, 98% of the time, government officials in high positions either in Kunming or elsewhere in Yunnan (many from places like Gejiu, Yuxi, Baoshan, Wenshan, Lincang, etc.)

2. The vast majority of these students have horrible English skills, and many of them pay for a year of language training at the university they wish to attend - this costs as much as tuition for a regular student, and if they pass their English exams at the end, they're in.

3. More than 3/4 of the documents I'd examine and help organize were horrible fakes, or entirely unbelievable. Surprisingly, most of the students were open about this and told me directly they were all fake (TIC?).

4. Of those documents, most of the nonsense ones were when their parents in government were making a combined RMB 70,000 per year, but could afford nearly RMB 300,000 per year to send their children to top schools in America.

5. In addition, every middle school, high school, and university in this province is apparently ready and willing to produce fake credentials for students either with money or connections. I've looked at High School transcripts and those from Yunnan University where the applying student had an average score of 98% in all of their courses. ALL of them.

The worst part was that these students were getting into GREAT universities without having to take IELTS or TOEFL. Rather, they got around it by taking a year of English courses, which would typically cost anywhere from $30,000 to $40,000 per year.

I was speaking to a friend of mine who's an attorney in New York the other week, and his firm deals with a lot of Chinese clients buying property in the United States. Now, more than ever, more and more Chinese are trying to get to the United States despite our apparent economic failures.

The vast majority of Chinese students applying to study in the United States simply don't deserve to be there. It's a shame, as American students struggling with loans and crippling debt have to compete with the sons and daughters of Chinese officials literally swimming in money. Maybe it says more about the US than it does about China?

JJ and Janice (324 posts) • 0

for TimKunming: fol is initial ltr to Amb Huntsman. Note these two girls were accompanying my wife and on a short vacation! Everything was paid for - - round trip tix, hotels, even rental car.

Other attachments to Post avail on request.

Cheers - - JJ

RE: Personal for Ambassador Huntsman
Sunday, July 25, 2010 5:39 PM
"AmCitBeijing" <[email protected]>
Add sender to Contacts
"Jerry Fletcher" <[email protected]>
Dear Mr. Fletcher,

We suggest you address your dissatisfaction with the U.S. Consulate General in Chengdu at chengdu.usembassy-china.org.cn/consularcontact.html. If you would like to send a letter to the Ambassador please see our link for his contact information at beijing.usembassy-china.org.cn/contact_us.html. Thank you.


American Citizen Services
US Embassy in Beijing

This email is UNCLASSIFIED

——-Original Message——-
From: Jerry Fletcher [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:24 AM
To: CIU Beijing
Cc: AmCitBeijing; [email protected]
Subject: Personal for Ambassador Huntsman

21 July 2010
The Honorable Jon M. Huntsman, Jr.
Ambassador of the United States
American Embassy
Peoples Republic of China

Via E-mail: [email protected] (hard copy to follow)

Dear Mister Ambassador,

I was dismayed, disappointed and ashamed about the treatment received by/from Consular officials at Chengdu. At best, the treatment was incompetent - - and - - at worst, was totally dishonest.

Details: First, I am a US citizen - - retired - - a Disabled Veteran living in Kunming. I spent a career as a US Navy officer (Navy SEAL). Some folks add "highly decorated" to the description. I was naïve enough to then expect decent treatment from my government.

My wife of 39 years was born in China - - raised in Taiwan - - and is a naturalized US citizen. We both tutor English to select students as our way to be involved in the community and do our small bit for Sino-American relations.

NOTE: Our first trip to China was in 1978 under the auspices of US-China Peoples Friendship Association. My trip report at the time was classified - - but has been declassified and is available should anyone be interested. Again, we had a small part in the "normalization" of relations between the two countries.

I have been under treatment by a doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine for the past two years. I believe that treatment actually saved my life! In the process, we developed a strong relationship with the doctor's family. We promised the daughter (who is now 16) that if she worked hard and earned her way into the best high school, that we would take her on a holiday with us to the U.S. We even scheduled our trip in August (who would go to Arizona in August??) because that is the only time students had available. The initial application was made 11 April.

I made a personal trip to Chengdu in early June to just make sure we did everything correct. I discussed entire situation with Vice-Consul and was told in these words, "Should be no problem." Plus we followed every single instruction on the webpage. We made all travel arrangements and pre-paid travel (round-trip) tickets and hotel accommodations. After the young lady was denied in early July (details of interview in attachment), we were told she could immediately re-apply - - which we did. The available interview dates were later than our scheduled travel date - - so we requested an expedited interview - - which was granted after I asked it to be done as a "favor" to me. But - - why oh why schedule an expedited interview knowing she is going to be denied again!! Certainly we all believed that the Consulate would never have approved an expedited interview unless she was going to be approved - - and that the Interviewer might actually look
at supporting documents this time!! Again - - denied - - after three cursory questions and not even looking at all the supporting documents we had put together in compliance with instructions. And now she has two denials on her record. The second girl (a classmate who was asked to go along as a traveling companion and is also an honor student) was also denied in a perfunctory manner.

The father of one of the girls is a police official. He contacted the Chinese Foreign Affairs Police in Chengdu. After checking details, we were informed that the "unwritten policy" of the Chengdu Consulate is to not issue visas to students unless they were traveling in an "approved" group. Had we been told that from the outset, especially in my face-to-face interview with the Vice-Consul, then we could have arranged group travel and done so before we ran out of time with multiple denials. THE CONSULATE OFFICIALS WERE NOT HONEST WITH US!

In a Press Release entitled, "Why the U.S.-China relationship is the most important in the world," you said, "The US-China relationship is the most complex and vital relationship in the world today." (Press Release 02/11/10)

Secretary Clinton said on 01/12/10 in talking about China that the US should "...reach beyond governments to engage directly with people ..."

Roger Dow, President of US Travel Association said on 06/18/10, that "...China will become the Number One tourist provider to the US with several million visits..."

Actions of the Chengdu Consulate belied every one of those comments.

Four parents - - a doctor - - a Walmart District Manager (Three Provinces) - - a police official - - a business woman - - now all have very, very negative thoughts about the dishonesty of the Consulate personnel and that feeling will be multiplied a thousand and more times over as their story is told and retold.

In a separate attachment, I am detailing the day by day communication and action should you desire to investigate the personnel involved.

So, Mister Ambassador, we are not asking for intervention in visa approval - - as we could not get everything accomplished in time for the girls to be back to start school at the necessary time. What we are asking is an investigation of the personnel and policies involved. If there is to be the transparency promised throughout the government, then the Chengdu Consulate needs to be cleaned out (there are other disturbing questions about some of the personnel).

Very respectfully,

Jerry Jon Fletcher

Building 17 # 702
Feng Huang Cheng
Bei Chen Xiao Qu
Kunming Yunnan
China 650224

PH: 15969415013
E-mail: [email protected]


[email protected]

[email protected]

laotou (1714 posts) • 0

JJ - you'd probably get a better response from wikileaks. As I said - politicians and their bureaucratic ilk are lazy animals and won't move unless cattle prodded. If you seriously want satisfaction - you'll need to go with the class action lawsuit - and I'm sure you can find MILLIONS of chinese citizens who've been ripped off.

As you've noticed - the government fraud waste and abuse hotline system is a farce and will most probably whiplash on the source. This is akin to asking the banking industry to regulate and police itself - and we all know how that worked out...

But - you have to go through the motions to collect sufficient evidence of negligence, fraud, waste, and abuse - in the absence of actual internal embassy communications and posted or unspoken policies. Again - if you want satisfaction and justice - I urge you to search for a credentialed and incredibly scary attorney in the USA who will take the case pro-bono or contingency only - it's a BIG one. They will help you develop the correct strategy on collecting information and correspondence which will help the consulate and embassy staff hang themselves.

THe typical government bureaucratic trick is to try to bounce the ball until you give up in frustration - but in a class action suit - this would play against the government as negligence and lack of accountability - which is a basis for fraud, waste, and abuse - and my favorite issue - why my tax dollars can be given away in free aid to a plethora of corrupt tyrannical human rights abusing governments (e.g. Saudia Arabia and their maid abusing slavers) while I still have to pay for stupid embassy services - how long do you think we can swallow the same male bovine poop pill before illumination flickers on?

If the embassy can abuse US citizens overseas - how much less should foreign nationals expect at the hands of these overseers (although I do appreciate the Chengdu consulates visits to Kunming - but I think that's more of a government sponsored lark for them).

When I worked at Rockwell (eventually absorbed by Boeing) there was an unwritten policy that all employees should work at least 4-8 hours of uncompensated overtime per week. The company would bill the government for our recorded hours and be compensated accordingly - adding to the company's profit margin - all highly illegal but difficult to prove without a class action lawsuit and subpoenas of working records.

Not sure if they still use this technique - but don't care - typical american executive management trick. Nobody would report this for fear of retribution - despite the fraud waste and abuse hotlines - which we all knew to be a farce for various obvious philosophical reasons.

aiyaryarr (122 posts) • 0

At the risk of being either too idealistic or naïve, or maybe a little of both, I need to get the following thoughts off of my chest:

We need to find ways to remind all our elected as well as all appointed officials, from the occupant at the White House down to the last clerk at the local US consulate, of the phase from Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address that prescribed a democratic government as being: "... of the people, by the people, for the people...." As such, our "public servants" need to understand succinctly that their only function, as fiduciaries, is to make life better for their constituents (us citizens) and not the other way around. It'd also help if they are constantly reminded who is paying their salaries.

Any US news media listening and willing to take the lead?

Login to post Register to post