Well that degenerated quickly. The "loser laowais" that I have seen probably only make up about 5-20% of the foreigners I have met, the higher % if you include the short time tourists who come here to chase tail. A small, but noticeable portion. Not sure about the ones yankee sees, the vast majority? Don't know about that... Well, as the girls I have been in relationships with before marrying a Chinese gal looks like a UN conference, I must not be one. Or maybe that makes me one? Damn, I think I might be in that group? So hard to define I guess.

I guess we are all losers in our own special way??

"So, it cannot be the case that a Western man comes to China for any reason other than he cannot find a job or get a girl "back home"?" or eat mcdonalds

I think a retraction and apology is needed. I was not in a very cheerful mood in my previous posts and instead of fully evaluating my own statements, I allowed emotions to seep into my writing.

I did not mean to say most laowais in China are losers, as many have said, they only take up a small but very noticeable percentage, the exact percentage depends on the personal definition of a "loser".

I have noticed that the expat community in Kunming generally can be divided into 3 groups:

1) retirees looking to stretch their pension by taking advantage of the cheap living and nice weather in Kunming

2) People for one reason or another, have no real long term job prospects or marketable skills back home

3) Someone that genuinely loves traveling or adventure and one way or another made their way to Kunming and stayed.

And of course, on top of that you have the tourists and students.

To paraphrase more bluntly, in so far as Kunming is concerned, 80%+ (my own guesstimate) of the expat community do not have successful careers developing back home. More likely than not, something horrible has gone wrong with their life or career path and they are looking for a fresh start in China, or at least an escape or a distraction; successful professionals simply do not give up their careers to come to Kunming extemporaneously. Of course there are exceptions but they are far and few in between.

Now, I'm not saying coming to China looking for a fresh start is a bad thing or that it makes you a "loser" But ultimately, expats working in Kunming are not here completely by choice, usually it is because there isn't anything else much better elsewhere. Given those circumstances, the "loser" label comes in when you stop being humble and act as if you are superior in some way to the locals or other expats when in reality, you are someone who can't make it anywhere else. Again, this does not apply to everyone.

My irritant with @mmkunmingteacher is that he pretends to be better than the rest of us and even perhaps the locals, when in fact he would rather be back in Louisiana with a successful food blogging/cooking career, something he has failed to achieve.

Back on topic, what I found disagreeable, to say the least, in his original comment was that somehow Chinese women are lower maintenance than American/Western women and so he would not need to put in the same level of effort and care. His preference for Chinese women over American women stems from his belief that Chinese women are easy to get. It is this objectification of Chinese women that I find distasteful; this view is not only held by the OP but also of the "loser laowais".

Loser laowais are not the only group of people subject to my anger, there is also the "loser Chinese" who thinks they are Rico Suave. You know the type, the guys that hang out at Kundu in their designer clothes knock-offs, their lighter disguised as Beemer keys on the table, going around asking all the girls (foreign and local) for hookups and when refused, offer to pay money.

In the end, how about treating each person fairly and with the respect they deserve without considering their nationality. Look beyond the surface for the soul underneath and if it takes more work then so what? Stop stroking your ego by preying on women whom are easily impressed by things that you had nothing to do with, such as your passport and the color of your skin.

I'm sure there will be many that object to what I have just said but it is what it is and so, there it is.

Tony, don't you find it a little presumptive to pretend to be able to assess why all foreigners are here, to divide them into categories, and to even go so far as to claim to know that people "would rather be" doing this and that? Wouldn't you have to know someone's mind and heart to make that sort of proclamation?

Second, do not say that I objectify Chinese women: that is ridiculous. I made a comment on cultural and sociological things I have personally witnessed. That is a far cry from objectifying women. You seem to think you know the hearts and minds of everyone else, but no one knows that.

Tony, also your categories are wrong. I was a career teacher in the US, and I came to China for something different, and because I wanted to broaden my career and my experiences. I do not fit into one of your categories, nor do many others.

Finally, Tony, I never said that Chinese women are "lower maintenance." I said that I personally find them easier to approach. I can assure you that they are not low maintenance.

Some Chinese girls are impossible to approach. But going by majorities and as a Westerner in China, they are a lot easier to approach in general than most Western girls back home. I aren't sure why this is, it feels like here most Chinese girls will just treat you like another person if you start chatting to them. In the west they seem to believe that you want to jump in their pants or that you are some sort of sexual miscreant or just a "creep" simply by the mere act of talking. I am the sort of person who will have a chat to anyone if they are around me and I find a topic of mutual interest, in the West that goes down as some sort of attack or that I have cynical motivations (even with guys), here it seems to be no problem and people chat back.

Maybe its a conformity thing? Often people in public situations in the West are almost always alone with a smartphone/MP3 player taking their attention and the West has a strong "don't talk to us if we are a couple, respect our privacy" mantra. This seems to extend from our sense of ownership and ideas of freedom of thought which have been taken to the extreme and corrupted. Combined with the overt feminism that a lot of Western women exhibit, it makes a casual approach difficult, nearly impossible unless you are a male adonis acting in exactly the right manner.

There is always a wall in the West too, people aren't honest or open, they seem to often have a "public face" which they display, devoid of emotion, highly critical and very defensive. In order to see the true person underneath it takes a long time to break this down.

In China it seems people accept you as a normal person first, then see what you are like by chatting then express interest on a base level with honesty and openness. As such making friends is easier as is finding a girlfriend. Just my experience.

@mmkunmingteacher,

Yes, it is a bit presumptuous of me to make certain assessments of you but given how passionate and verbose you were and are in these forums in talking about yourself, I feel I can make an educated assessment. (Ironically, in the same statement in which you accused me of being presumptuous for categorizing people based on my personal experience, you then made a generalizing statement based on your own experience.)

As to whether or not you objectify Chinese women, I'll let others make that judgement, I most certainly believe you do even if you deny it. I'll lay out my claim again:

1) You find Chinese women easier to approach

corollary: You find American women more difficult to approach

2) You started a thread asking advice on where to meet Chinese women.

corollary: You prefer Chinese women over Western women.

3) You believe Chinese women are more approachable due to their culture and so by being yourself and acting natural and normal, you can attract more women in China.

corollary: You do not believe this approachability is due to your passport and white face but rather due to your personality.

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From your own admission, you would fall under category 2 in my book. The education field back home is a very tough market to get into and last. One does not jump in and jump out lightly. Given your approximate age, you have only been in the field for about 10 years, most likely starting out subbing hoping for a regular assignment or eventually getting one and finding it difficult to last. Having unable to attain your goals, you've then decided to "broaden [your] career and [your] experiences". Having tried your hand in cooking and seeing that going no where as well, you then stumbled upon or decided to come to China. You can deny this assessment all you want but I am fairly sure I am not too far off from the truth. But then, it is only my uneducated guess so its neither here nor there. I'll let the reader make their own judgement.

Whether or not I would call you a "loser" would depend on how you view yourself. However, I am not looking to make that evaluation.

By the way, are you now admitting that after all this time posing as a food expert and berating people over topics of food, you are really just an amateur home cook pretending to know about gastronomy?

At the end of the day Matt, your reputation and my reputation has been well established through the postings. You can deny everything if you wish but it is what it is. I really have nothing to prove and don't really care about things written in the forums. Maybe I do get a chip on my shoulders from time to time in my outbursts but in the end I am only here to keep my mind sharp and from being dulled by the constant Chinglish that I come into contact with. As Hugo said, the forums are meant for entertainment and information, although it is been more of the former and less of the latter.

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@blobbles

I will have to say that having dated many types of women in the States and China before settling down with my Chinese wife, I do not find Chinese women any more or less approachable than back home. I find some people more approachable and some less approachable, both in China and the States, but this has to do with the person and not with anything cultural.

I could go on a diatribe here (not at you but at the topic) but I'm sure everyone else is already tired of my tirade.

Ciao~

Being the only woman in this discussion is not very easy, but since this discussion seems imbalanced I'd like to share my opinion.

Someone said:

"I find that Western women tend to want an ideal of a man — the perfect man — who has the right line and does the right things. If I approach a Western woman, I am supposed to speak just the right lines, be funny, say just the right jokes, stand the right way, pose the right way, and have just that right sentence or word. But Chinese women, if I am just friendly and natural, they will talk to me. That is the main difference to me."

I was in the States just for holiday, so I can only talk about "approaching European girls", but this is the most stupid thing I heard so far. Have you spoken to one of your female friends about it? Im pretty sure, they could have given you some advice for the next date. It's just another way of saying that you dont know how to approach girls and are very insecure. The difference with Chinese girls, the ones without rich laowai experience, is that they think this (what seems weird to Westeners) behaviour is typically foreign. Some of them also dont bother too much, as the foreigner can provide them with other things (not meant in a negative sense).

I have a couple of very good friends who came to China for job reasons or for studying. They all have Chinese girlfriends/wives now and Im very happy for them as they never had a real relationship back home since I can remember.

So, where did my friends find their girlfriends/wives?

1. at University in China and back home
2. Language exchange in China and back home
3. When travelling around China
4. at work (the girl used to be his translator)

For me a looser laowai is someone who comes to China, finds a Chinese girlfriend, makes her pregnant and then forces her to have an abortion, because he already has a family back home or doesnt want to take responsibilty. Then these guys go onto the next Chinese girl and it starts all over again. Some of them are even so kind to pay for the medical expenses.

And finally, why me and my girlfriends are not attracted to Chinese men. We all had Chinese boyfriends though and I only speak from our experience. In terms of physical attraction, most Chinese men have the body figure of an adolescent back home. But, look is only one part of attractiveness. In terms of character and personality, there are three groups of Chinese men. One is submissive, bossy/imperious and the thrid group is "I want a foreign girlfriend trophy". The second and third groups are the worst. We experienced things like "Can you put on some sunblocker?! I want you to stay white", 'I want sex now' ' I dont want to' ' I dont care, I want. You are my girlfriend, so it's your duty to make me happy', 'I want to get married next year and I want to have a son', 'I dont care if you want to leave me, I wont let you leave me. I know your passport number and I have proof that you worked illegaly in China". And so on. When you break up, they will stalk you, call your friends, show up at your house and workplace, call you so often that you need to change your number and your email address. Two of my friends went back home, because of them. Some of the Chinese guys even had degrees from Western universities.

It's good to hear from a woman's prospective. Very refreshing. I here the same complaints from Chinese woman as well.