Hi Folks thanks for your contributions to this thread. A special thank you to ABCD for playing devil's advocate, as you have no firsthand experience of AA or what being an alcoholic entails, that's all you can be. As the old saying goes 'You shouldn't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes." This gives me an opportunity to share my experience of getting sober and making my life better with the help of the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. The first thing I have come to believe is that AA is for alcoholics that want it, not for alcoholics that need it. If you don't want to stop drinking, carry on. I didn't arrive at the doors of AA because my life was great, I went to AA because I didn't want to die. There's a world of difference between being sober recovered alcoholic and just not drinking. A dry drunk is an alcoholic who just stops drinking, their thinking or behavior remains the same. I've learnt that drinking is only a symptom of alcoholism, I needed to get down to the causes and conditions of what I was suffer from. If you are not nuts, you don't belong in AA. Some alcoholics are forced to attend AA by the courts, their employees or spouse's, but they don't want to stop drinking, so I can see the alcoholic character in the need to decry AA to justify the continuation of drinking, as I said you have to be nuts to qualify for AA. I have not been forced or threaten or coerced to doing anything in AA that I didn't want to, I did it because I wanted to live a happy sober existence. Love and tolerance of others, is the code AA's try to live by.

When a newcomer says AA is brainwashing me, the humorous reply you might hear is, "yeah that's because your brain needs washing." If you consider this to be brainwashing, making a disgustingly dangerously anti -social alcoholic becoming a useful and respectful member of society, well that's up to you. I'm more inclined to think of brainwashing as someone hijacks a plane and smashes it into a skyscraper, or someone killing and maiming innocent people as brainwashing.

When I think back of what I was like as a practicing alcoholic and the things I used to get up to, pissing myself in public, pissing in friends bed, as well as my own; throwing up over a secretary at work, throwing up in the park on a summer days, being banned from bars, social occasions or attending parties with my wife because of my unacceptable and disgusting behaviour; Stealing money, booze or wives from friends and strangers alike, it didn't matter. Being sacked for drink related issues; waking up after a blackout full of fear' dread and humiliation of what I might of done or injury I had caused: running away from jobs, relationships and towns because of my fear, remorse and guilt, - now what about AA taking away an alcoholics respect?

Cheers Bill

Sorry, although I understand that many people feel they've been helped by AA, including people who were in very desperate situations, I'm not convinced that:
- AA is the BEST help available
- AA is not doing some harm

I have a very simple question.
On average, how many years does a person attend AA meetings?

In other words, when did you first attend AA? When did you stop drinking? And how long after you stopped drinking did you continue to attend AA meetings?

Because this goes back to the point I was trying to make that their objectives seem to go beyond just helping people with their drinking. Does it really take 10 years of meetings to deal with a drinking problem?

My feeling is that many people attend AA for years and years, so this becomes another form of dependency. Is it as bad as a dependency on alcohol? No, probably not. But neither does it sound particularly healthy. And that's why I'm suggesting that there are probably better alternatives out there, even though I don't know from personal experience.

P.S. There's a book about AA entitled "Not God: A History of AA". Interesting title!

For someone who keeps claiming that this is their last post, IT sure does persist like a virus. If the shoe fits, wear it. I believe this post is for those seeking some assistance in problem drinking. No idea why those who state they are not alcoholics come here to troll and insult.

HFCAMPO: Maybe he is a 'postcoholic' and need to attend PA meetings.

www.spiritualriver.com/[...]

Here, OP: I'll leave you with this link, which has several anecdotes about AA breaking up marriages. One woman complains that her husband uses AA to meet women. Another woman complains that her husband goes to 4 AA meetings a day and neglects to spend time with family.

And of course, plenty of anecdotes about control-freak sponsors and all the rest of it.

So again, I'm glad that AA has helped you, but it's clear to me there are a lot of problems with AA.

It may well be true and most likely is that since the founding days of AA new methods and alternative techniques to getting a grip on a alcoholism and/or addiction have sprang up in the west. RR and SOS are accepted as is individual therapy and even the oldest method of them of all just stopping on your own if you are able to go that route, though few are.

The problem here is none of those methods are really available in China as a whole much less Kunming itself. How will one find an RR (Rational Recovery) meeting when you can not even find an AA meeting here. There are no mental health clinics that I know of here and the use of anti- depressants is all but nonexistent in China.

So if AA is cult like and creepy then one should not go. And why would a person who admits to having and never having had a drinking problem go in the first place. I have been sober eight years on my own. I am not an AA advocate but if a meeting were formed I would certainly would to go since there is nothing wrong with helping and supporting people who are trying to stop drinking in a place like China where support is lacking if not nonexistent in most places.

Some people obviously suffer from other issues than drinking here (people who keep saying "this is my last post on this thread" and then go on immediately to another long, manic driven rant shows some sort of issues are going on that AA or RR are not designed to address) and it is too bad they cannot see that they are only trying to hurt others and make themselves look foolish in the process.

I am a not a AAer myself, as I said, but I welcome a meeting in KM and if I can help set it up I am available and Flying Horse has my number. Good luck to the drinkers with no problems, to the drinkers with problems and - apparently- the non-drinkers with problems out there.

Hello Abcdabcd, welcome to AA.

Creeps, thieves, murderers, rapists, and all. I've seen some amazing knowledge roaming those halls, I've cried like a baby, and I've laughed like a little child. And through it all is the eternal human spirit that endures.

Group therapy is another word you can throw in there. It's also free, which helps with those who have no money.

I would also like to add that AA is not just for alcoholics it is also beneficial for people whom have had traumatic experiences with alcoholics.

AA is for everyone that has had to deal with alcoholism wether they were the ones drinking or not.

Hi folks, this is the first time I've ever interacted in a forum on line. An interesting experience to say the least. . I take OP stands for 'original poster' me in this case. My purpose was to see if I could be of any help to anyone with a drink problem, but the original sentiment has been distorted into the validity of AA. I got sober and remain sober through the fellowship if AA. I class myself a grateful member of AA, but I do not speak for AA as a whole, I'm simply an individual trying to be of service to anyone in need of assistance. To ABCD, you asked me a simple question, On average, how many years does a person attend AA meetings? Follow numerous other questions, so its self evident that there is no simple answer to your question. However, in the spirit of honesty and open-mindedness I would love to buy you a cup of coffee and share my first hand experiences ( good and bad) of AA with you. If you genuinely and sincerely want to know the truth about AA from a firsthand source, I would love to take time to talk with you. There's a lovely quote in the book of Alcoholics Anonymous by Herbert Spencer that helped me in my recovery, "There is a principle that will keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Investigation does not simple mean looking at the negative element of any one thing. As I learnt in AA, if I focus on the problem, the problem gets bigger, if I focus on the solution, then solution with get bigger. In the "Chapter to the Agnostics" another quote that helped me was" I couldn't see the beauty of the forest, because the ugliness of one of the trees" Please take into consideration the positive effect of AA. My phone number is on the original message. Please feel free to call or text, I will willing give an honest account of what I have found I can also give you a copy of the book Alcoholics Anonymous to read. . Then you can report what you find in your own words and not just here say. If there is anyone who has a problem with their drinking, I'm here to be of help, if I can. Cheers Bill