I can see that the previous commenter has "drunk the the Kool-Aid." This is not an authoritarian country? Are you crazy? I've personally witnesses thugs grab someone off the street the street and shove him into a white license plate car in broad daylight in Beijing. There is no freedom of the press. The government is in no way accountable to the "people." Sure, anyone can live a sheltered, comfortable life without making any waves, but there are plenty of issues here that require making waves instead of turning a blind eye (or sitting at your computer looking at porn or gambling sites!). By the way, many of the same issues apply to the other countries, like the US, UK and France: educaiton, health care, pollution, etc. Please don't be an apologist for the Chinese...unless of course you are just a Chinese stooge.

There is less freedom of the press than in the west certainly.

But as you yourself pointed out there are many of the same problems, albeit to a lesser degree (although the U.S. is on its way there) in the hypocritical west.

I am not an apologist, but I am a guest here. I don't feel that anything demands me making waves. I think if the Chinese want to change things they will do it their own damn selves. They don't need whitey to come and tell them how bad things are. You talk to chinese they will tel you that they are aware of the same problems, outside informaiton does get into the country, which relates to my original point the great fire wall is quite porous.

As far as looking at porn or gambling, I don't really care whether you approve of such activities, but I would submit that they are more productive than trying to stir up protests.

Let the Chinese decide at what pace they should open their country and don't be so condescending as to suggest that anything short of western liberal democracy is a draconian dictatorship. I'm sure people can tell you plenty of sensational stories about people being snatched into cars in most countries in the world, including "democracies" like the U.S., Russia, India, and America's new democratic ally Iraq.

Clearly you don't really think it's that dangerous to criticize the government here do you?

Perhaps I should have said not totalitarian. Surely they fall somewhere on the authoritarian spectrum, as do most coutries.

My point is things are changing slowly, I can get information that is subversive and in some instances technically illegal--hence the reference to porn.

China is not as bad as North Korea or Burma, you will not be deported for what you post on an internet forum. And dramatic anecdotes aside, I don't think most people feel the harsh boot of oppression on their throats on a daily basis, adn I don't think they need westerners telling them how they just need more western liberal democracy.

If that is whatr they want they are more than capable of deciding for themselves without foreigners "making waves."

And even CCTV 9 which is clearly censored and in many instances propaganda at least metioned Burma/Myanmar, I think the origianl comment that the op just had an outdated link is probably the most logical explanation. Not that the internet monitors in Beijing blocked the site.

So maybe I stated it too strongly, but my point stands, the western media is full of propaganda too, China is not as bad as we have been led to believe.

Aren't forums interesting? Especially when a subject is discussed -- instead of someone mistakenly using the forum to sell a bike, or something . . . there is the Classified section, people.

Back to the subject, Burma. Of course, China isn't as bad as Burma or the DPRK (Democratic?) but they don't continuously try to convince us that they are democratic, harmonious, societies, either. Who is the target audience for CCTV-9 anyway, but that's another subject?

In my opinion, the behaviour of the unelected military junta in Burma is not an internal matter. We are all Earthlings, and the murder of peace-loving monks and nuns can not be condoned. I haven't been glued to the TV screen, but my experience was simply of a video statement about the UN envoy visiting the country (no harm in that, is there?) but no pictures of army riot-police beating the people (I found that on the Internet). Perhaps, someone would like to tell me why it wasn't on CCTV-9 -- as if I really don't know? Please don't say, trade -- perhaps Chinese characteristics -- but more likely, like-minded government.

The only Utopia that'll ever appear will be in a work of fiction. Nevertheless, please don't let any more people say, 'Bernie, this is China!' (Yes, I'm actually using my real name).

I have no more to say.

okay, sorry if you think I was hi-jacking.

I can tell you what's happening: monks are being round up still, many who haven't been rounded up and tortured, or perhaps who have and nave been released are disrobing, because they think it is pointless, people are more fearful than before the protests, assemblies of more than 5 people are banned, a state of emergency has been declared, cvilian protestors have also been rounded up, innocent by-standers as well as protesters were beaten for no apparent reason.

The NY Times did a piece on it that is not blocked in China, other sites report similar incidents.

Do I think this is disheartening, and do I swish Burmese people were not suffering in such a manner, of course.

But I am not sure what you or I or the U.N. can do that is not a symbolic gesture that will be ignored by the junta. The people rose up, adn they were crushed--again. Not much else to say.

Now why is China not making a stink of it. You say you don't want to hearabout resources, well, I'm not sure how we can discuss this without talking about resources, Burma has plentiful natural gas, pertoleum, hard woods, marble and gems. The Chinese buy these things, some of them they need. The leadership of this country cares about resources and development, I do not know why they would give a f*ck about the Burmese people. Maybe you can enlighen me. Should they, most certainly, but they don't.

Myanmar is also a Chinese client state. The fact that otehr countries like Burma, or Sudan look to China as an alternative development model, and a powerful patron adds to China's prestige. Just like Russia wants to have a hand in Serbia, or France wants to play a role in some of its former African colonies, China want to preserve and expand its influence. They're just trying to be one of the big boys. It's called real politique and it usually trumps humanitatian concerns. This is why the U.S. backed a coup to overthrow the democratic government of East Pakistan.

If China wasn't filling this role I am sure Thailand (Burma's biggest trading partner) or India would step up and do the same thing.

Incidentally why no calls for Thailand or India to do something? Besides can you tell me somewhere where economic sanctions have worked, unless by work you mean strengthening the regime and starving the people.

Or are you saying China should invide and liberate Burma--then they would really be a responsible power like the U.S. and Britian right.

You see, that's why it is an internal matter. Those outside of the country can't really do anything.

Lastly, China likes a stable coutry on its border, not an escalation of the civil war, not a bunch of unstable, loosely governed ethnic micro-states. What's better for stability than a junta? Even if Burma were not on China's border China does have business interests there and stability is good for business. This is why the U.S. supported the Suharto regime in Indonesia, and various national security states in Latin AMerica (along with fighting the "commies").

So China is just acting like the world power it aspires to be, and as such it is not in their interest to destabilize Burma, or push for democracy, and even it they wanted to what could they do? Not much. The only choices are diplomatic pressure which will be ignored, economic pressure which will not work and may strengthen the regime, or military intervention, which can only make things worse.

Unless you have some other options. . .

J.N., there's a great deal of truth in what you say and, judging by the amount of words that you write, you do feel as strongly about the situation as I -- unfortunately, it makes me feel that we are living in a pathetic world.

The behaviour of China, regarding Burma, worries me more than most people. Having discussed Ta**an with some Chinese intellectuals (so called). The subject of the 'separatists' (teeth clenched as you pronouce that word -- who just happen to be 50% of the population, at last count) suggests a horrible scenario when (not if) the PLA move in. Perhaps not like Burma, but not like Hong Kong either.

Sometimes, I lay in bed and recall the book that I read as a boy, The Invisible Man, and imagine that I had his secret today. I could travel to Burma with assassination intentions. But what would that make me, as someone with Budhist inclinations? Superman in saffron-coloured robes. :)

By the way, I didn't think that you were hi-jacking.

Amitofo.

"Let the Chinese decide at what pace they should open their country".

Response: don't wait for authorities to let you decide anything. I'm not sure who these "Chinese" are you are referring to, but I doubt if you'll meet them on the street.

You bumped a thread that has been dormant for 2 months just to quote me out of context? You must really be bored.

If you read the entire post, I think it is clear that the Chinese on the street are exactly the ones I am talking about.

My point was they are more sophisticated and informed than westerners give them credit for. Some want China to be more open, believe it or not, some don't. Some think most censorship is for their own good. This is a debate for Chinese people, not westerners who feel they need to rock the boat and make the poor Chinese realize how oppressed they are.

They are not children. They can manage just fine without western do-gooders and activists. As I said, I am a guest here and will behave accordingly. You want to make waves go ahead, but to me it is presumptuous for a westerner to come here and try to tell Chinese how they need to change things. Just because it is not like America or Europe does not make it bad.

They can find their own model, and if things are to change, it should be Chinese in the vanguard, not know-it-all foreigners. That was my point.

I'm not trying to tell anybody to do anything. I'm just suggesting that there are people telling 'the Chinese' what to do, and I wish they would stop. I think they could manage just fine without being told what to read, think and do alla time, whether by westerners or anybody else.