American English, British English...who cares?

Posted in: Forums > Study • 34 posts • Newest

• • Kiwi3
    March 12, 2010
    61 posts
  • It never ceases to amaze me how many language schools still advertise that they specialise in a certain accent or recruit teachers from one native language country but not another, and they have certainly sucked in a lot of local students who are under the false impression that a certain accent is better than another.

    It is even worse in Taiwan where everyone wants to learn American English.

    For starters, there is no such thing as American English. Can you tell me that a Texan accent and a New York accent are remotely close to being the same thing?

    And what happens if you learn American English, do you then ignore or panic every time you meet a South African, Irish or Indian person or whatever?

    Personally when learning Chinese I have gone out of my way to get exposure to Beijingers, Shanghainese, Sichuan, Yunnan, heck, even Hong Kongers speaking Mandarin, so that I am comfortable with any accent.

    Am I missing something?

    Disclaimer - I am not an English teacher and not writing this out of any sort of spite, I just think it is a bizarre and phoney concept.

• • piers
    March 12, 2010
    147 posts
  • South African Ignore
    Irish Ignore (panic if from Belfast or Derry)
    Indian Panic

• • hedgepig
    March 12, 2010
    275 posts
  • "there is no such thing as American English."

    really? the blank stares i got from a couple of Americans the other day when i used the word 'abseil' say otherwise.

    faucet, drapes, suspenders, pants, sidewalk, bill, check, vest, gotten...

• • Tonyaod
    March 12, 2010
    181 posts
  • I agree, but I think there are several factors worth considering.

    When speaking about American English, British English, etc, I don't believe they are focused on the accent but rather on the mannerisms, vocabulary and with way of speaking.

    Whether you are talking to a New Yorker, Texan, or Californian, a cell phone is a cell phone. But when talking to a Brit, it becomes a Mobile. Gas=Petrol, Flashlight becomes torch. And to throw in a Harry Potter reference, what on earth is "snogging"?

    Even though, as an American, I can understand British, Indian (somewhat), Scottish, and Irish accents, I wouldn't be able to understand the idioms and or cultural references they are using simply because I wasn't exposed to them in school. When we say "Tom and Jerry" we think of a cartoon. But I believe "Tom" and Jerry" has a different meaning in Briton.

    So why the preference? I has to do with where you are expecting to use your new found skill. If you are planning on studying in UK, it would be helpful to learn the slang and idioms used over there, you'd probably want to know what snogging, Tom, and Jerry means.

    As to why prefer American English, mostly because the US, for the most part, is the largest and most important trading partner in the region. Another reason is that the US is the largest exporter of culture via Hollywood and its music industry. How many times have you seen an British movie open in China, Taiwan, HK, Japan?

    Anyway, just my two cents.

• • laotou
    March 12, 2010
    620 posts
  • Actually there MAY be a difference between British and American English. Now - this is just based on my own experience of being raised in a British English environment and working in American Multinationals. For the record - the Brits don't understand me because they're confused about my accent (and I'm Chinese) - the Americans don't understand me because - well - I have a British vocabulary and sometimes pronounciation of various words - British pronounciation is just more elegant (aka less harsh).

    British English has a SIGNIFICANTLY larger vocabulary and students are generally taught how to read English with expression (interjecting emotion). Comparing dictionary sizes is NOT an appropriate test as that does NOT indicate SPOKEN or COLLOQUIAL English usage. Proper British English uses elements of wit and sarcasm at higher language levels.

    American English generally is contained to a smaller colloquial vocabulary of frequently used words and phrases and tends to be more direct or blunt.

    A good way to see this illustrated is to observe a cross-section of British versus American comedians. It's for THIS reason that American English is both easier to teach and tends to be preferred to acquire rapid English proficiency. Mastering the inuendos of English then requires students proceed into British English - with all of its richness and eccentricities.

• • JJ and Janice
    March 12, 2010
    253 posts
  • Yes - - there is American English. Check with Rosetta Stone language lessons - - you have a choice to purchase American English or British English.

    As to preference - - it all tends towards commercialism. It seems to be a given in international business that American English is used more than any other. Using that over-used word "pragmatic" - - the Chinese will opt for the one most commercially viable.

    And - - Yes - - culture has a lot more to do with the differences than does an accent (except, maybe, for India).

    All in all - - folks will opt for what they think best for them personally.

    Note: although American, I have been exposed to many "types" of English from playing rugby in New Zealand, Australia, England, Canada (interesting those speaking English with French accent) - - and working with SAS (and SBS) in England, Australia and NZ.

    Again - - just my two cents (now where does that come from!!)

    Cheers - - JJ

• • JJ and Janice
    March 12, 2010
    253 posts
  • As to "my two cents" - - from Wikipedia re: American and British idioms (ie., English):

    "..."My two cents" and its longer version "put my two cents in" is an American idiomatic expression, taken from the original British idiom expression: to put in "my two pennies worth" or "my tuppence worth." It used to preface the tentative stating of one's opinion. By deprecating the opinion to follow — suggesting its value is only two cents, a very small amount — the user of the phrase hopes to lessen the impact of a possibly contentious statement, showing politeness and humility. However, it is also sometimes used with irony when expressing a strongly felt opinion. The phrase is also used out of habit to preface uncontentious opinions."

• • jimsc
    March 12, 2010
    9 posts
  • Laotou, what the hell are you talking about?

    There "MAY be a difference between British and American English"? Are you trying to be comically pompous? There are a thousand and one differences between British and American English. Several, ranging from vocabulary to pronunciation to grammar, have been pointed out in this thread.

    Is elegance in pronunciation (whatever the hell that is) the same thing as the lack of "harshness" (whatever the hell that is)? Or do you just really like Received Pronunciation because you associate it with very polite men in bowler hats, and you associate American pronunciation with Britney Spears and George W. Bush?

    And you think American English is more popular in China because American comedy is simpler? Do you really believe that is a relevant criterion to students, teachers, and school administrators? Do you think any of those people care that Ricky Gervais is a million times funnier than Steve Carell?

    Laotou, get your inflated head out of your butt. (AKA your bottom, as I've heard it is called in jolly old England.)

• • laotou
    March 12, 2010
    620 posts
  • Oh dear - seems I've stepped on someone's toes - exactly the opposite of the intent. I thought I'd become wiser with age and experience - but perhaps not. As kindly demonstrated, American colloquial English also makes extensive use of select expletives as adjectives to emphasize the speaker's emotions - although that may not be acceptable by the newly formed(?) Kunming Toastmasters - which I highly recommend to anyone wishing to improve their public speaking or language abilities. The Toastmasters (never been to Kunming's) is a friendly constructive environment and...it's FREE! The entertainment industry is yet another version of dialectic and colloquial English and it's subtleties. I met a young Chinese student who wants to work in entertainment industry and listens extensively to RAP to pick up on the lingo and body language.

    I responded with my PERSONAL experience having lived on both sides of the fence in several non-English speaking countries with a plethora of colorful and diverse expats speaking an equally colorful variety of English dialects. I was trying to be polite and intentionally vague so as avoid direct offense or incite incendiary emotions - but that seems to have the precise reverse effect to some - showing yet again the diversity and difficulties of the English language regardless of dialect. As for British vs American English - my former staff - when faced with an extremely offensive racist comment form an American manager who should have known better, in regards to his pronounciation commented that "if you want to speak English like MOST people in the world - then one should learn to speak the INDIAN dialect of English - as there are more people in India who speak English than anywhere else in the world.

    As for comedy or humor - it is a higher form of English language study/comprehension, regardless or American or British (or Indian) as the humor requires exposure and understanding to the local culture and colloquialisms. Delivering or receiving a joke or humorous story can be quite difficult for non-native speakers - whether written or oral.

    As for criterion - most college grads in China have memorized English in its various flavors for over 10 years - few are conversant, so if criterion is irrelevant - well that makes dialect even more moot.

    ...and back on point to Kiwi3 - most students study the various flavors because they want to work, live, or study (date?) in that respective country (or work for a multinational from that country). It's a bit naive on the students' parts - but the schools cater to the expressed desires of the market.

    With that said - I'll go stick my inflated head back into my butt as penance for what I've helped America become both today and 15 years from now - but it will be challenging with my foot in my mouth. I'll try to reflect on the rigeurs of comic and pomposity and the use of elegant as a contrast to harsh...and I'll have to severely brush up on American pop culture as I clearly don't understand the eclectic virtues of Britney Spears. Ricky Gervais - definitely need to investigate...the world is far to serious with itself...but can he compare to the longevity and cult-like following of Python?

    And - I've never been to jolly old England...Paris is tops on my list right after I bounce through Tokyo, Sydney, and another place I'd love to visit - NZ.

• • JJ and Janice
    March 12, 2010
    253 posts
  • For Laotou
    I am writing the Agenda for next week for Kunming Toastmasters.

    Would love to schedule you as one of our speakers - - 5 to 7 minutes on any subject.

    Let me know
    JJ

    jjfletcher168@yahoo.com

• • Bernie
    March 13, 2010
    100 posts
  • I think it wonderful that a Chinese person (Laotou) writes the most sensible comment on this subject.

    Actually, the subject is sociolinguistics, and some would benefit, initially, from simply knowing the difference between ESL and EFL.

    Just my two pennies worth!

• • Onobaron
    March 13, 2010
    9 posts
  • I feel like this thread was started specifically to bait people into argumentative and possibly generalized responses. I also think that those commenting on either side of the discussion need to take a second look at the original question. The preference of schools for American English is simply due to the overwhelming number of American native speakers to all other native English speaking countries. see graph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

    Laotou, as a non-native English speaker, please keep your comments and opinions to yourself. British English and American English are the same language. What you have suggested in this thread is that different dialects of a given language are inferior to others. Perfect example, standard (Beijing dialect) pu tong hua and Kunming hua. Using your assessment process, the "harshness" of Kunming hua makes it inferior to its parent language, despite having a vocabulary that exists entirely outside that of pu tong hua.

    I will close, again siting wikipedia, which only offers one "English" in its search engine language options.

    The General Explanations at the beginning of the Oxford English Dictionary states:

    The Vocabulary of a widely diffused and highly cultivated living language is not a fixed quantity circumscribed by definite limits... there is absolutely no defining line in any direction: the circle of the English language has a well-defined centre but no discernible circumference.

• • JJ and Janice
    March 13, 2010
    253 posts
  • How did a discussion on language get lowered to personal attacks???

• • Ouyang
    March 13, 2010
    118 posts
  • many people have personal feelings about language since it's closely tied to culture... the personal attacks are more based on the fantasy that a country has a single culture, and that studying it somehow automatically makes them better, or something... meh, I want some ovaltine.

• • Tonyaod
    March 13, 2010
    181 posts
  • I think we are starting to confuse two different issues here. The original debate is why do Chinese language school differentiate between American Natives vs British Natives vs. Aussie Natives, etc. The reason for this, as JJ and/or Janice said, is pragmatic. While we can agree that both American English, British English, Australian English are all English, the colloquialism, mannerisms, euphemisms, the cultural references, even the vocabulary set used by different countries are all quite different.

    As to what Onobaron said, unless I misread something, I didn't get the impression that laotou was stating one was inferior over the other, just how he believes they are different. By the way, it is (using a unscientific survey) agreed among the Chinese, (including Kunming locals) that Kunming hua and it's derivative, mapu hua, is vastly inferior to pu tong hua. This is not due to an objective assessment, but rather through indoctrination in grade school that the only proper language is pu tong hua. A lot of my Chinese friends do not prefer that their children learn their local dialect simply because they don't want their children stigmatized due to their accent.

    Another point is that most people like Kiwi, is comparing the differences between American and British English to Shanghai putonghua and Beijing putonghua. I don't feel this is accurate.

    A more accurate comparison is the difference between a main lander Chinese and a Taiwanese Chinese. Both would argue that they are speaking proper Chinese. However, if let say you were to learn your Chinese on the main land, however fluently you speak and is accepted by locals, if you were to speak the same way in Taiwan, you would probably be gawked at awkwardly simple because of the perceived bias. Now, I'm not saying there is a bias between American English and British English, just merely making a point. If you want to use your Chinese in Taiwan, you'd be better off learning from a language school that teaches Taiwanese Chinese. And if you are coming to main land China, you'd be better off learning from main land Chinese.

    But that's only an suggestion and not a hard rule. I think too many people are taking this issue too personally.

    Finally, to close out, to all of you old enough to remember, "Can we all just get along?" (People outside the US probably are scratching their heads now. See my point?)

• • laotou
    March 13, 2010
    620 posts
  • JJ
    Thanks - before i responded, I did a quick profile on jimsc which revealed he/she occasional gets fired up on the forums. That's good - keeps me sharp and can sometimes provide both a contrasting point and also reveal how others feel. jimsc and onobaron were quite unhappy with my responses - so that tells me that even though I'm trying to be polite and non-contentious - I'm having the exact opposite effect in quite a strong way. As executive managers - we need to deal with all flavors of people without trying to hammer them into a mold as is frequently done in Asia. I try to see things through other people's eyes when a contrasting point is made - although flame wars between company staff is not tolerated or permitted, executives are not held to that standard - they are nevertheless expected to communicate in a civilized and constructive manner a la great social, religious, and philosophical leaders.

    Bernie
    Your response (the paragraph which is on topic) is the an eloquent and succinct response to my wordy occasionally inflammatory diatribe. Humble bows and respect.

    Onobaron
    This is a forum used for comments and opinions - and since your basis for banning is faulty...not gonna do it. Flaming happens - close one eye, look the other way. And for the record - how many non-native English speakers do you know can can respond this fluently with mostly correct grammar, punctuation, and vocabulary? Even the tourism students rarely display this level of language ability (without native speaker assistance). I'm a native English (British) speaker with an American accent...assuming Australian flavors of English are considered English. My family is ancient, well established, and famous (in both good and bad ways) both in Kunming and throughout China - yet I still prefer the more melodic Putonghua over Kunming hua, guangdong hua, etc - it's a personal preference. Non-native English speakers choose dialects for a variety of reasons, including preference for a particular sound. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like the ability to converse in Kunming Hua.

    As for Kiwi - I'll take him/her at face value as I would a friend looking to start a conversation - regardless of intended or non-intended incendiary potential. As an outsider to the language schools (both commercial and univ sponsored), the schools are market driven - they only respond to what the community desires. Kunming and Yunnan are tourism magnets - with the predominance on non-domestic tourists from the USA - we can check the numbers with the gov tourism dept - but I suspect it's not and overwhelming statistic (like 3/10 as opposed to 9/10).

    Also - if language students want to work abroad - (when the economy picks up) - there are simply more jobs in the USA than in all the other English speaking countries (except India) combined. I would venture the source is related to economics as Chinese tend to be pragmatic as a culture.

    Based on jimsc and onobaron - I'd guess you're both American with powerful and strong patriotic tendencies. Every sword cuts in two directions, every coin has two sides. I may understand in part the source of your responses - can you see mine? And before this turns into a nationalistic flame - I'm also an American citizen - I've done far more than 95% of the population to contribute to America's military strength for the next 15+ years (and I quit that industry almost 20 years ago) - but to many Americans I'm still just another chink pretending to be an American. I don't fit the mold of a "good chink" - I don't shut up when oppressed, nor will I allow myself to be abused - I have dignity. I'd rather be a foreigner in my country of descent than an outcast in my home country.

• • jimsc
    March 13, 2010
    9 posts
  • Laotou, my criticism of your post has nothing to do with patriotism or racism. It has to do with your original comments being completely asinine. Yes, I wasn't diplomatic about it, but that's because you sound so full of yourself.

    First, you absurdly insisted that there "MAY be a difference" between British and American English, when it's obvious that there ARE many differences.

    Second, you asserted that British English is "less harsh" than American English as if that were a linguistic fact rather than a personal preference.

    Third, you claimed that American English is more popular in Chinese schools because its humor is more simple, as if that, rather than market opportunities and comparatively overwhelming influence of US pop culture, were really relevant.

    Don't play the race card, as if I or anyone else wants to oppress you for not being a "good chink." I just want to point out how dumb your original comments were. If you're not native speaker, then I am sorry for being such a dick about it. But really, think about the nonsense in your first post before your accuse those who disagree with you of racism.

• • Tiger
    March 14, 2010
    66 posts
  • @jimsc: Your comments display an inability to sensibly discuss this subject, at the level that others are discussing it. Laotou's original comment has long passed and, where it may have been needed, has been explained in more detail. 'Cool' is now used to describe a piece of fashionable clothing - it originally described temperature.

    ToastMasters would welcome your attendance at their next meeting. :-)

• • JJ and Janice
    March 14, 2010
    253 posts
  • We welcome ALL to Toastmasters every Wed nite. Goals are to improve public speaking and leadership with the added benefit of improving English.

    Since we are not a "debating society" - - subjects of politics, religion and sex are not suitable topics.

    If you want more info - - email:

    jjfletcher168@yahoo.com

    Cheers - - JJ

• • Kiwi3
    March 14, 2010
    61 posts
  • Onobaron, was not looking to bait anyone, was just curious about what other people think about this and wondering whether I am alone in telling my local friends to get this unimportant question out of their heads.

    Also, there are a lot more English speakers in India than the US.

    Also, if looking at economic reasons, trade between India and the US is set to mushroom and become enormous...

    The point I will make is that if a Chinese person is looking to learn English then worrying about American or British English should be well down the list of things to consider, and if someone is looking to learn the language effectively they should be looking to get exposure to various accents, British, American, other native and non-native accents. If institutions advertise on the basis of a certain accent then they are feeding on ignorance.

    Cheers.

• • John Xie
    March 16, 2010
    72 posts
  • I'm a Chinese, I think there's really a thing called American English, when we talk about American or British English we do not focus on the differences of phrases, but more on its pronunciation, even though a Texan accent and a New York accent is different but they do have a lot in common. Today's American English becomes more attractive (sounds better). back to the 1960's (from movies of that time I learn, e.g., the 7 year itch, Marilyn Monroe's voice sounds unnaturally babyish ), American English at that time does not sounds as good as today's and even somehow close to British.

    We love American English not because any other influences like America being the super power, dominant global culture influence or big trade, but lies in the language it self. A similar case on the contrary is in China, Shanghai is a leading city, but Shanghai dialect sounds not good and even mean. Just like a song, nobody tell you its sweet or not, but you do have a feeling that this song sounds better than that song. And to me also many other Chinese, British English sounds like there are too many stresses and the speaker seems being a little nervous. Beckham is a big star, but we don't like his English, While Tom Hanks sounds much better even when he play a restarted man Forrest Gump.

    If American English is tagged by many extra labels,I would say I like Canadian English the most.

    No offense to any one

• • JJ and Janice
    March 16, 2010
    253 posts
  • Question for John: you now mention Canadian English. Can you tell me the difference in Canadian English and American English??

    For the nit-pickers: we know Canada is part of America - - so perhaps we should say United States English and Canadian English!!

• • nnoble
    March 16, 2010
    178 posts
  • At a dinner in Beijing a professor (whatever that means these days) from Cornell University sat and said very little while a table of around a dozen people from around the world sat and chatted eagerly. Finally from across the table eminent professor (what does THAT mean!) lent forward toward me and stated "English no longer belongs to the British'. My immediate thoughts, after being thrust into the spotlight, were '...... he's straight from the ministry of the bleeding obvious.' Conscious of where I was and the need to be polite, I could only reply with "It never did." In retrospect this feeble response may have saved him further embarrassment and me from getting too tribal.

    Language does appear to evoke strong emotions, for example: ''Laotou, as a non-native English speaker, please keep your comments and opinions to yourself.'' The latter outburst I found shocking.

    The IELTS (English test) does not favour either British or US English and strives to avoid cultural bias. Neither does it overly concern itself with grammar since the emphasis is more on the ability to communicate, at least at the lower and intermediate band levels.

    British, US, Canadian, Indian or Chinese English is surely no more an issue than choosing between two brands of good beer, just as long as communication takes place?

    As to the original question? Much the same as the choice of beer, I may have a preference, but in the end who cares.

• • laotou
    March 16, 2010
    620 posts
  • Flames notwithstanding - I re-read my first post and I really do sound like a pompous _ss. However the emotions behind the flames also show diversity in opinion and impact. It was truly fascinating to see the incredibly diverse range of opinions and perspectives on a seemingly simple query. And I welcome John Xie's opinion which adds a domestic element to the comments. Quite lively!

• • John Xie
    March 17, 2010
    72 posts
  • As I see Canadian English is almost the same as US English. I really don't know theire diffrences. I can tell a person is from UK or US or Australia from his accent, and I see Austrlian accent is standing somewhere between UK and US and a little closer to UK. by the way, I don't know the accent diffrences within Uk, England, Scottland, and welsh. I preciate if someone could have an intruduction on this.

    There's a story, I have a Canadian co-worker, right at the US election year, I ask him, " who will you vote for? Bush or John Kerry. " "they are not our president". It reminded me he's a Canadian.

• • nnoble
    March 17, 2010
    178 posts
  • John Xie, reference UK accents: general elections are looming in the UK. One possible way of listening to regional accents would be to get onto a UK news website with multi-media output and listen to sound clips from the leaders of the Welsh and Scottish Nationalist party leaders. The difference will be clear enough. However, you then have to bear in mind the Scottish cities of Glasgow and Edinburgh are just a few kilometers apart yet the difference in accent are stark.

    For the regional accents of England: Listening to the British Prime Minister Gordon Brown (Scot) will not help here. Perhaps regional news websites or radio programmes (Liverpool, Manchester, Devon and Cornwall) would give you a flavour of the mix of accents. BBC Radio 5 live (lots of 'phone in programmes) will provide you with a real potpourri.

    On a slightly related matter: Chinese students often become overly concerned with pronunciation and accents yet I find they rarely interfere with communication. This is not something I could say for a strong Glaswegian accent or some speakers in the south east of London.

    Possibly one of the purest and easiest British accents can be heard spoken by the inhabitants of the Shetland Isles, way up to the north of Scotland.

• • chinaman
    March 17, 2010
    1 post
  • English whether American or British is still a foreign language in China.Who cares??

• • John Xie
    March 20, 2010
    72 posts
  • Hi nnoble, thank you very much for your introduction in detail.

• • Fitty Stim
    July 20, 2011
    1 post
  • I know it's an old post and all that crap but... since Google thinks this is a webpage relative to my search, I'll go forward and comment.

    I'm a native English speaker so maybe my opinion will actually matter. Having said (written?) that I'll postulate that the only person who makes any sense is Onobaron.

    The silliest comment is by hedgepig who was upset that an American couple didn't recognize the German word "abseil".

    For all it's worth, English is the language (one language) and the discussion devolved into a bitch and moan session on dialects and accents. And as a native speaker, I can verify (personal experience) that there are native speakers in the US that can not understand each other (it's a big country and dialects can be dramatic).

• • Texas Boy
    July 20, 2011
    53 posts
  • Left out most important - - TEXAS ENGLISH!!

• • hedgepig
    July 21, 2011
    275 posts
  • @Fitty Stim
    if 'abseil' is not the popular contemporary UK English for descending with a rope, what is?

    the word the blankly staring americans did understand was 'rappel' which i am fortunate to have in my vocabulary. the word is as french as 'abseil' is german.

    where did you get the idea that i was upset?

• • Danmairen
    July 21, 2011
    427 posts
  • "Made in America" - Bill Bryson. Excellent read.

• • austinpickers
    July 21, 2011
    11 posts
  • I tell my English students The Queen's English makes the rules and we Americans break the rules. We say it, we do it anyway we want.

• • Yuanyangren
    July 26, 2011
    176 posts
  • Before anyone starts a thread about British English vs. American English...how many Chinese people even know there is a difference? We should be focusing on getting people to speak English in the first place and fixing the problem of Chinglish.

    Unlike in other parts of Asia, getting around by using English in Kunming and in China in general is a painstaking process that will get you nowhere. In fact, even from day one in China I assumed no one could speak English except my hosts and on the odd occasion I found myself alone I would use mime or try very hard to construct a sentence in Chinese...I would rather speak broken Chinese than even say one English word.

    I've only met a handful of people that could even speak English in Kunming, and then only a marginal amount...don't even begin a discussion about British vs. American English until or unless the average person can even speak English, because right now only like 0.01% (unscientific results) of Kunming residents can speak any English at all.

• The Old Theatre Inn
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• My Favor Restaurant
• Chapter One
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