Although n general I don't like missionary efforts much, at least of the fundamentalist variety, I do think we might stop to realize that they're not all bastards, and not in all ways. Medical missionaries, in particular, have done a lot of good in the world in situations where nobody else gave a damn, and some of these, at least, might well be called fundamentalist. The last 150 years of history in Yunnan includes such people. I might prefer that they had not been fundamentalist missionaries, but it's hard to argue with lives etc. (medically) saved.
Main problem I have with fundamentalist Christians is their largely-unexamined concept of 'God'. As for Dawkins, it would seem that he spends a lot of time arguing that God does not "exist" - fundamentalists argue that 'He' does. But material existence is something we can debate in relation to chairs and cats - the idea that God 'exists' in the same way strikes me as braindead. The whole God discourse, I think, can have value, although I think those engaged in it should be careful to examine what they are talking about more clearly and for that matter, the idea of a 'Son of God' as well, which is one that Muslims do not engage in (Jesus, in Islam, is a prophet) and which strikes Muslims as ridiculous and laughable. A lot of words can obscure different kinds of truth, and those used to defend 'literal' truths of religious texts usually do so - one can find Truth in novels, poems and the art of John Coltrane.
I realize this is not what we're really talking about here, but a little imagination can sometimes bridge gaps in understanding, even with fundamentalist missionaries - though that's a hard sell, it might work better if it could be out in the open.
Magnifico's statement that people are either inherently born decent human beings or they're not is bullcrap. Show me an ounce of evidence that the statement is true, that genetics determine whether people are 'decent' or not. And no, I'm not saying that genetics has nothing at all to do with human behavior - it's just that there are a lot of factors involved, including those that lead people to decide what is and what is not 'decent' behavior, what it might be in situation A rather than in situation B, etc.
If the statement were true it would be unnecessary to deal with missionary or any other people involved in indoctrination because it would be impossible for the victims of such indoctrination to be made anything other than decent people.
Or maybe they'd be 'decent' but misdirected? Actually, I think this later suggestion is closer to the reality concerning human behavior, and I think logically Magnifico's own arguments point in this direction, otherwise, what's he worried about? And yes, Magnifico, I'll give you slack to correct your statement, which I think you made without thinking about it too deeply - happens to all of us sometimes.
The history of mining in the area is interesting - tin mines going back a couple thousand years and more, significant for the rise of early Yunnan political entities and, of course, important for sparking French interests in Yunnan and the building of the RR from Haiphong, 1910. .
@atwilden: well, flying smarter is something, anyway - flying less is better. Anyway,m what interesting things usually happen to you on an airplane? Virtually nothing, would be my guess. People shortchange themselves.
@tallamerican: Of course I can't stop people from driving/flying all the time, at least not by myself, but I can slow the damage by limiting my engagement in it myself, and perhaps at least make others aware of the problem and hopefully awaken them to their responsibility for what they do - many people will, in fact, take some responsibility for their actions once the consequences are pointed out to them, it's the avoidance of conscious thought, about issues that are not all that hard to make objective judgements about, that constitutes the human lemming instinct that gets us into such trouble, and that is manipulated by those who couldn't care less about us or anybody's future, for what they see as their own short-term advantage.
I don't think you guys get it - air travel, as practiced since the great increase over the past 15 years or so, is simply environmentally unsustainable, full stop.
Always a problem with this sort of thing, which I thoroughly support - seems many people have the attitude that they have a right to keep 'their' wealth.
People never used to have enough time either - the solution has always been to TAKE it. Failure to do so leads to the development of a tourist industry, with all its disgusting accoutrements. But hey, I figure we're all guilty.
Thanks for the tips on Shibaoshan, I plan to go stay up there & go around the whole place one of these days, when I take the time.
Not quite what you'd call a jumping place, but not bad at all for rather standard US-type meals, not overly expensive, and with a really good salad bar that's cheap, or free with most dinner dishes after 5:30PM. You can get a bottle of beer or even wine if you really want to, but I've never seen anybody do it - maybe that's just to take out. Chinese Christian run, and they hire people with physical disadvantages, who are pleasant and helpful. Frequented by foreign (mostly North American) Christians and Chinese Christians - was started by a Canadian couple associated with Bless China (previously, Project Grace), who are no longer here, but no religious pressure or any of that. Steaks are nothing special, and I avoid the Korean dishes, which I've had a few times but which did not impress me.
As a shop and bakery, it's very good bread at reasonable prices, of various kinds (Y18 for a good multigrain loaf that certainly weighs well over a pound. Other stuff too, like granola and oatmeal that is local, as well as imported things, including American cornflakes and so forth, which some people seem to require.
Large portions, seriously so with the pizza, which is Brooklyn/American style, I guess. Convivial, conversational, good place to drink with good folks on both sides of the bar, especially after about 9PM.
The Help Out — Philippines Fundraiser
发布者And in addition to the actual amount raised there are the benefits that can occur inside people's heads (getting people to think, etc.)
Yunnan air routes a hot commodity
发布者@atwilden: well, flying smarter is something, anyway - flying less is better. Anyway,m what interesting things usually happen to you on an airplane? Virtually nothing, would be my guess. People shortchange themselves.
@tallamerican: Of course I can't stop people from driving/flying all the time, at least not by myself, but I can slow the damage by limiting my engagement in it myself, and perhaps at least make others aware of the problem and hopefully awaken them to their responsibility for what they do - many people will, in fact, take some responsibility for their actions once the consequences are pointed out to them, it's the avoidance of conscious thought, about issues that are not all that hard to make objective judgements about, that constitutes the human lemming instinct that gets us into such trouble, and that is manipulated by those who couldn't care less about us or anybody's future, for what they see as their own short-term advantage.
Yunnan air routes a hot commodity
发布者I don't think you guys get it - air travel, as practiced since the great increase over the past 15 years or so, is simply environmentally unsustainable, full stop.
The Help Out — Philippines Fundraiser
发布者Always a problem with this sort of thing, which I thoroughly support - seems many people have the attitude that they have a right to keep 'their' wealth.
Yunnan's Stone Treasure: Shibao Mountain
发布者People never used to have enough time either - the solution has always been to TAKE it. Failure to do so leads to the development of a tourist industry, with all its disgusting accoutrements. But hey, I figure we're all guilty.
Thanks for the tips on Shibaoshan, I plan to go stay up there & go around the whole place one of these days, when I take the time.