some_guy - thanks for the compliment, but how do you know my first name?? : /

Kris - hmm, after reading your post, I think you're right. Originally, I was only in support of the impromptu night market because I thought it wasn't doing any harm, and because it was making it more difficult for cars to pass through, and might eventually lead to fewer cars on the street.

However, after reading your posts and seeing the reality for myself on the streets, it's becoming evident that they are indeed a nuisance to nearly everyone, including residents and shopkeepers, and that they're bringing in _more_ cars, not less. How has the market affected Salvador's sales?

@ hedgepig - Yeah, I've noticed that on the street near paul's as well. Hopefully it is a first step to making the entire alley pedestrian, but somehow I doubt it. They're probably only limiting traffic in that area because there is a school there and a playground, and they deem cars unsafe, whereas wenhua xiang is still considered ok for cars. I think it might be expecting too much for the authorities to realize the value of a car-free area?

Whoops, missed this one:

"I don't believe those people being there is of any help to any of the legal businesses."

I don't know, I'll agree with you that the new vendors are competing somewhat unfairly: they don't have to pay rent, and sell out of their cars. However, the Chinese way of shopping is exactly this: dozens and dozens of store congregate around each other, all selling the exact same thing. And shoppers come and walk and browse, comparing the goods. What to me seems like a terrible idea ("well, there's already a dozen stores selling cigarettes on this street, but sure, why not, I'll open my cigarette store here too!"), evidently seems to work in China. This sort of competition is perfectly normal.

And lastly, have you actually seen any of the wares the street vendors are hawking? It's all trash. Either small plastic trinkets, or ill-fitting, ugly clothing that clothing stores rejected. Sure, they're cheaper, but they can't compete with the higher (I use the term loosely) 'quality' stuff sold in the stores.

Kris, let's agree to disagree. You just posted a bunch of your opinions, without anything backing it up.

Let's take this one:

"I don't believe that the people who buy their wares are there just for the market"

I pass by wenhua xiang fairly regularly, maybe three or four times a week (it's between my workplace and my home). On the nights that the people are there selling their wares, the street is, like you said, packed. On the nights where they aren't there (even at the same time of night) wenhua xiang has maybe a tenth of the people. Compare these days at around 10 PM with wenhua xiang a few months ago. Are there more people now or less? And if these illegal markets aren't bringing more people around, then why all of a sudden is there a noise complaint, and not before? It might not seem so to you, but to me it seems fairly obvious that it is exactly this night market that is bringing around more people, and nothing else.

I know that you "don't believe" this or that, but it makes it difficult to discuss this with you when you just post unsupported opinions.

"It's just annoying and rude."

I consider the cars on the street far more annoying and rude.

And regarding living in a dream, how about this for a down-to-earth, easy-to-apply solution to the car problem:

1. give every resident who lives on the street a car permit, which they place on their car.

2. Place a sign on the street saying that after a certain date, no cars without a permit are allowed on the street. Failure to comply results in a 50 yuan fine.
3. On that date, have a police officer or chengguan patrol up and down the street. Every time a car rolls by, check it for a permit. Failure to produce a valid permit results in a 50 yuan fine slapped on the driver.

All you need is a few cars a day passing through illegally and the system pays for itself

There definitely are some problems associated with this, for example the garbage left behind as J.H.C. mentioned, or maybe the noise level at night. However, all in all, I think this is great, and I actually wish there were more of this in the West.

In response to this:

"Don't the business owners on the street feel angry about this?"

I actually think the opposite is true. These dozen or so random collection of carts and cars selling goods, from plants to clothing to plastic trinkets, have attracted massive crowds of potential buyers that would simply not be there in the first place if it weren't for this impromptu night market. Sure, there might be some degree of competition, but mostly I don't think there is all that much overlap, and anyway, the crowds that they attract more than make up for the small amount of business that they steal from them. The noise complaint isn't really that reasonable either: the alley is packed with restaurants and bars that are usually open far later than the night market anyway.

The only real complaint I have are the cars that insist on driving by. Seriously, the best thing that could happen to wenhua xiang is if they closed down the street to cars, except if you had a resident's permit and lived on that street. Otherwise, there really is no reason to drive through it. I mean, what, you're driving on Yi Er Yi da jie and you need to get to wen lin jie or something, and you think that driving down what is essentially a one-way alley, packed with students from Yunda and pedestrians shopping, is going to get you there any faster than going around? If you meet even a single car coming the other way, then you immediately block the road and cause a jam.

Instead of complaining about the night markets that frankly do far more good than bad, we should do something about limiting the number of cars on wenhua xiang