User profile: JanJal

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Forums > Living in Kunming > Proposed IIT Reform

Yes, under this new amendment (and this text alone) my past arrangement would have made my foreign income taxable in China. I believe so it would have been under old regulation.

But so would many other kind of foreign income, and hence the 5-year rule specific to foreigners, for which (in light of this new IIT amendment) we are waiting for the final decisions.

Previously it was the 5-year rule, which was a protection (if you will) solely for foreigners.

However since last year (and for the time being), I have registered a company in China, and my foreign income is channeled through that. For which I pay IIT on my part of the revenue.

But if situation in China or globally changes, I like to be in the know about my options - still have 20+ years career left.

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Forums > Living in Kunming > Proposed IIT Reform

For the record, the first 6 years that I was in China, I was employed abroad and working remotely from my home in China.

Me or my employer had no sales, business or income in China, and my "working in China" was limited to the concept of sitting physically in my home in China, instead of some other country.

I had no local employer who would have neither adviced about or collected my taxes.

Also my employer was in a third country, and my home country does not tax this kind of income, so I had no tax obligations anywhere - except perhaps to China, if I had not reset the 5-year condition.

Regardless, for a few years I did pay my taxes in China as courtesy rather than legal obligation. Since I had no employer here, I visited tax bureau personally on annual basis and paid what I myself declared as foreign income.

Your commentary above implies situation where there is employer who would calculate and claim the taxes from your salary on your behalf, and submit them to local tax bureau.

But the whole point of the 5-year rule is to get to tax your foreign income, ie. something that your Chinese employer (if you had such), or Chinese tax authorities, will know nothing about - same as in my case.

Even if you have an employer abroad from which you get that foreign income (rather than for example pension or rental income), they also will be ignorant to China's tax regulations, and are under no obligation to adhere to such.

It is sole responsibility of the individual himself to declare his or her foreign income in that case. Perhaps the only entity in China who could enforce the person to do that, are immigration authorities - and even they cannot confirm whether your declaration is true or not.

This is part of the issue why some tax bureaus in China seemingly prefer foreign employees to leave China before the 5 years is up. It would be extra work for them to get to tax income that they cannot confirm in any way.

There are also other considerations. If you do have considerable foreign income in USD or whatever currency, and then you have to pay taxes for that to China. Do you remit and pay the tax in USD to China's tax bureau (can they handle that?), or exchange to RMB first? What about China's foreign exchange regulations? It's a whole lot of issues to deal with, some of which would conflict with other laws of China, like the annual forex limit on individuals.

Since there is no employer who could be obliged to do all that paperwork, you'd have to assume the foreign individual to do it personally.

Few Chinese tax bureaus beyond first tier cities even have English speaking staff. But they do occassionally have the common sense to not try taking the foreigner's money with broken English or elementary Chinese. As in many other fields in China, officials may rather do nothing than risk making a mistake.

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Forums > Living in Kunming > Proposed IIT Reform

Naturally when I wrote "breaking the 5 year rule", I meant resetting the condition by leaving the country for substantial enough period.

You are right about being pedantic on the matter though, in this thread.

That said, I believe that to be in conflict with the laws being understood - that may apply to professionals working in this fields and teaching it to others, or their customers, but not to those who have to follow them despite working in completely different fields.

Take random English teacher considering a few years stay in China. He's not going to understand pedantic law texts.

"concept of a “legal basis to claim tax” tax is amusing. Tax laws, and regulations, stand as the basis to tax. They are the law."

Only if you assume that the tax authorities always follow the laws.

For exampe this very specific five year rule as it has stood until now - I'm fairly sure that there are foreign individuals residing in China with condition to be taxable on their worldwide income, yet China's tax authorities do not exercise that right.

When I referred to "legal basis to claim tax", I meant that. They have the right, but they may not exercise it.

This may relate to other scenario that I have heard in China.

Some foreign employees have said that their employers force them to leave the country before the 5 years is up, and I have found no other explanation than the local tax authorities (in co-operation with the employers), not wanting to get to the paperwork to claim taxes for the employee's foreign income. Easier for them to force the employee on an unpaid sabbatical.

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In extreme poverty, people will even limit survival to that of their own person.

This has been reported, for example, from DPRK prison camps with family members turning on each other to survive.

In today's China you cannot make this comparison to DPRK, but China's history has left its marks in people's behavior today.

If I interpret Mike correctly, he is referring to general attitude of average Chinese person toward other human beings, nature, and generally everything other than himself and his immediate family.

For long time China was poor country, and it still reflects in many parts of the society. One is, that average Chinese will always put his own survival and benefit first.

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