Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Neither place appears to make it easy to just turn up and live for an extended period, and that is fine (though I still think the 2008 Olympic visa changes should be relaxed! It's like getting blood out of a stone to get a visa to come visit a place you've lived for 10 years!). Cost-wise, with the changes in the Chinese internal economy and the exchange rate Thailand is definitely cheaper to go and live at the moment, though this was not the case in the past. Some other areas it excels over Yunnan are internationalism (particularly in Bangkok; and anyway this is a double-edged sword), cultural facilities (museums, libraries, music and art scene, events, etc.), internet speeds, international transport links, general lack of bureaucratic hassles, and access to beaches. Yunnan is cooler, has greater climatic variety, has beautiful mountains and great rivers, and thankfully avoids that (behind the scenes, frequent, Thai assumption that) 'all farang are walking ATMs and sex tourists' type attitude. Yunnanese people, particularly from smaller areas, are generally really open and honest, and didn't get up in the morning to take a chunk out of you-or-some-other-farang's wallet. Hehe.
It's a credit to GoKunming and to China's increasing openness that this discussion can occur in a public forum.
While there have been definite integration policies in play during the latter part of the 20th century (re: languages available in mass media, languages available in education, questionably enforced script changes for some minorities, etc.) it makes sense to look at (mostly the same) minorities across the border in Vietnam, Laos and Burma to see some alternate versions of the potential present for traditional peoples of the greater Yunnan region ("Zomia").
While I certainly maintain some reservations regarding some of those recent policies, after spending time in all of those places (except Burma, where I have been to the Yunnan and Laos borders in multiple places over a decade period), I think it is fair to say that generally, those traditional peoples of the region who are based within Yunnan have greater access to education and technology, relative freedom of movement (socio-economically) and greater 'standard of living' by de-facto global perspective (though this, economically rationalized view, has serious limitations) than their peers over the borders. In this sense, it is fair to say that the government is definitely doing a good job. So, congratulations to the local authorities: I know I wouldn't want that burden!
Interestingly, it might be noted by other participants that the initial serious integration of Yunnan with the rest of China occurred under a Central Asia born Muslim from Bokhara in Turkmenistan, who was a personal bodyguard of the Khan at the dawn of the Yuan Dynasty and effectively retired to Yunnan to take up the historically very difficult task of attempting to govern and bring under control this formerly wild borderland. He is known to have advocated (personally, to the emperor) the careful application of unique policy exceptions within Yunnan, for example removing the requirement (which he claimed as untenable) that all commerce be conducted within Chinese money. Apparently the policies served their purpose, though the apparent anti-foreign sentiment at the dawn of the succeeding Ming Dynasty culled the family's size (through apparent murders) as well as their political influence. Despite this, his great (great?) grandson was Zheng He, the (vindictively Ming authority-enforced?) eunuch-admiral at the turn of the Ming Dynasty who took Chinese treasure fleets as far as here in Indonesia, India, the Middle East and East Africa. (Just yesterday I visited a mosque and cafe in eastern Java named after him.)
Needed ID just to get a train an hour west of Chengdu to see the ancient irrigation works last December. Didn't have a passport so after a discussion and a growing queue they agreed to just enter the same as my brother's and increment the last digit, hah!
Needed ID just to get a train an hour west of Chengdu to see the ancient irrigation works last December. Didn't have a passport so after a discussion and a growing queue they agreed to just enter the same as my brother's and increment the last digit, hah!
As per Ouyang's comments: as of a few months back when I was last inside the great firewall: VPN is needed to popular trackers, but any torrent itself will work fine. Ian's comment on encryption is pertinent - no idea if it's required, but it's a good setting to enable anyway. Also try randomizing your port numbers. Also check out VeryCD - a Shanghai guy's tracker for emule stuff. It's mostly in Chinese, but way fast inside China, and a good alternative to torrents. For TV or film, check out PPTV and other services which work great inside China. But don't trust that software on your main system if possible - run it in a VM (see virtualbox.org/ or vmware.com/)
Xiefei: Of course, we will probably never know the real reasons, but the result is the same. Absolute depoliticization of the site, the movement of anything still suggestive of a pluralistic history out of town to what amounts to the middle of nowhere, and the vaguaries of apologetics resulting from a lack of transparency in government decision making. What next? Personally, I expect to see a coffee shop in former exhibition space.
I believe it's hard to interpret mtDNA evidence without being an expert... there are a lot of Chinese mtDNA studies in the Yungui Plateau area.
Other studies I have read show things like the pre-modern peoples of the Yangtse delta (Shanghai) region came up the coast from Southeast Asia on boats.
Then of course we have the development of long-distance, multihull sailing vessels in the islands (some even attribute this to prehistoric Vietnam), which resulted in undeniable migration of one linguistic group (Austronesians) as far west as Madagascar and as far east as Easter Island and (by a recent article published in the prestigious journal Nature) South America ... all this allegedly from Taiwan.
See en.wikipedia.org/[...] for some background there... "some Amazonian Native Americans descend partly from a Native American founding population that carried ancestry more closely related to indigenous Australians, New Guineans and Andaman Islanders than to any present-day Eurasians or Native Americans."
The main point is, there's evidence of all sorts of things, but a coherent picture is far from agreed upon, and the picture is changing.
Perhaps it would be fair to say that what we really know about ancient Yunnan, other than its extreme diversity and ancient peopling since neolithic times, is that it was a melting pot important in the initial dispersal (by both prehistoric migration and trade) of critical technologies such as intensive rice agriculture across a broad swathe of Asia, and that this importance is not widely known in either academia or public consciousness, despite the geographic/topographic sense this makes, the continued discoveries of ancient settled agricultural sites (Jianchuan), etc.
We are only beginning to learn about our own ignorance! :)
If I recall correctly I read the sign at the entrance to the old museum site on Dongfeng Dong Lu a few months ago, which suggested that the powers that be were in the process of "depoliticizing" the contents of building by turning in to some kind of modern fine art gallery, no doubt with a carefully audited inventory to raise no pesky questions about historical independence and ethnic identity.
I was the friend that dragged Jordan down. It's not a bad museum as far as space goes, but the exhibitions are pretty lame. The lack of translations is grating, as is the wholesale abortion of any attempt at a timeline of Yunnanese history. It's as if the curators were afraid of political backlash for actually laying out history in an honest fashion.
The Nanzhao stuff is pretty detailed, and there is a good selection of bronze age items - far more than the original provincial museum in town.
Overall it's worth a look if you're in to history, but a pain to get to.
One is drawn to question whether the remote location is intended solely to dissuade visitors or was purely a victim of political wranglings.
Good effort by some of the involved, I would say, but an overall poor showing given the investment and background, all said.
Huge areas of interest such as the bronze-age discoveries at Jianchuan, the neolithic paintings in Lincang and the historic connections with Vietnam's northern region are largely ignored. As are any links to Hindu religion in the Nanzhao period (evidenced in carvings at Shibaoshan), the historical seige of Kunming by Tai troops from what is now modern Shan state, Burma, the amazing influence of Zheng He, the history of boats on the central Yunnanese lakes, the 'qi' tiles of Baoshan, and so on...
Overall, poor show.
I wish Yunnan would get a clue about how to market their amazing history and drop the political wankery.
@nailer is being unfairly dismissed: they are certainly fallible. At one point they were well managed and the only game in town, and their outdoor bar had an interesting social vibe. Recently, none of these is the case (was given a bad bill to the tune of ~300% - no managers present and a subsequent complaint resulted in a less than ideal outcome, many more places are now open, and the outdoor bar is closed). Unless you are specifically seeking faux-Americana (often far better examples elsewhere) or two degrees removed faux-Mexicana, there's little reason to go there. How come French Cafe can serve a great sandwich for 24元 but Sals requires 50元 for a pretend-exoticized nibble? Certainly the business will continue, but the hey-dey is clearly gone. Romaniticizing the past aint gonna help. E-waste recycling by shipping (non carbon neutral) junk across the country? Puh-lease. Garbage processing people here recycle anyway! I applaud the ethical stance of one of the managers, but the place has frankly lost its mojo.
Called the number provided on a Friday at 2:15PM while a 10% discount was advertised "on Friday and Saturday" (listed in GoKunming specials).
A Chinese person answered the 'English' phone number in Mandarin then explained in broken English that you need to order 3 hours in advance. (Subtext: As their business is so slow)
Grumble. False advertising. Waste of time. Seems 100% Chinese run. Probably bad pizza.
The listing here is wrong! Teresa's are not defunct, they are just back to being one store instead of two stores on Wenlinjie now! They are still in business, still answer on this phone number, and are still delivering! Points for consistency, it's been years! As of right now, it's 68元 for the more toppings vegetarian at the largest size. They will do thin or thick crust. Yes, it's not to everyone's taste, but I always used to find adding dried chilli powder and some extra salt brought it up to tasty. Might go for a dash of Sichuan pepper oil to spice it up this time around. (You know you've been in China too long when...)
Honestly, I wish them the best of luck, but I do think the staff are poorly managed and the owners have the wrong attitude and a clear lack of experience in service-oriented business. While the pizza is OK, everything else I have tried (including overnight stay) can be had cheaper and better elsewhere, and the pizza at Roccos is better in my opinion. The service has always fluctuated between acceptable to don't care.
Since they don't have their situation resolved yet, and it has been a few years, I have made the decision not to go there anymore or send anyone else. It's just not worth the hassle, given the crappy location (masked as private or lost). Better pizza with more quiet and privacy on Roccos' terraces.
Snapshot: Chiang Mai street art
Posted byDo not miss the German-run Chiang Mai breakfast world! Best breakfast ever! Try B55A.
Around Town: Yunnan Provincial Museum
Posted byXiefei: Of course, we will probably never know the real reasons, but the result is the same. Absolute depoliticization of the site, the movement of anything still suggestive of a pluralistic history out of town to what amounts to the middle of nowhere, and the vaguaries of apologetics resulting from a lack of transparency in government decision making. What next? Personally, I expect to see a coffee shop in former exhibition space.
Study: Modern-day southern Chinese, SE Asians, from Yunnan
Posted byI believe it's hard to interpret mtDNA evidence without being an expert... there are a lot of Chinese mtDNA studies in the Yungui Plateau area.
Other studies I have read show things like the pre-modern peoples of the Yangtse delta (Shanghai) region came up the coast from Southeast Asia on boats.
Then of course we have the development of long-distance, multihull sailing vessels in the islands (some even attribute this to prehistoric Vietnam), which resulted in undeniable migration of one linguistic group (Austronesians) as far west as Madagascar and as far east as Easter Island and (by a recent article published in the prestigious journal Nature) South America ... all this allegedly from Taiwan.
See en.wikipedia.org/[...] for some background there... "some Amazonian Native Americans descend partly from a Native American founding population that carried ancestry more closely related to indigenous Australians, New Guineans and Andaman Islanders than to any present-day Eurasians or Native Americans."
The main point is, there's evidence of all sorts of things, but a coherent picture is far from agreed upon, and the picture is changing.
Perhaps it would be fair to say that what we really know about ancient Yunnan, other than its extreme diversity and ancient peopling since neolithic times, is that it was a melting pot important in the initial dispersal (by both prehistoric migration and trade) of critical technologies such as intensive rice agriculture across a broad swathe of Asia, and that this importance is not widely known in either academia or public consciousness, despite the geographic/topographic sense this makes, the continued discoveries of ancient settled agricultural sites (Jianchuan), etc.
We are only beginning to learn about our own ignorance! :)
Around Town: Yunnan Provincial Museum
Posted byIf I recall correctly I read the sign at the entrance to the old museum site on Dongfeng Dong Lu a few months ago, which suggested that the powers that be were in the process of "depoliticizing" the contents of building by turning in to some kind of modern fine art gallery, no doubt with a carefully audited inventory to raise no pesky questions about historical independence and ethnic identity.
Around Town: Yunnan Provincial Museum
Posted byI was the friend that dragged Jordan down. It's not a bad museum as far as space goes, but the exhibitions are pretty lame. The lack of translations is grating, as is the wholesale abortion of any attempt at a timeline of Yunnanese history. It's as if the curators were afraid of political backlash for actually laying out history in an honest fashion.
The Nanzhao stuff is pretty detailed, and there is a good selection of bronze age items - far more than the original provincial museum in town.
Overall it's worth a look if you're in to history, but a pain to get to.
One is drawn to question whether the remote location is intended solely to dissuade visitors or was purely a victim of political wranglings.
Good effort by some of the involved, I would say, but an overall poor showing given the investment and background, all said.
Huge areas of interest such as the bronze-age discoveries at Jianchuan, the neolithic paintings in Lincang and the historic connections with Vietnam's northern region are largely ignored. As are any links to Hindu religion in the Nanzhao period (evidenced in carvings at Shibaoshan), the historical seige of Kunming by Tai troops from what is now modern Shan state, Burma, the amazing influence of Zheng He, the history of boats on the central Yunnanese lakes, the 'qi' tiles of Baoshan, and so on...
Overall, poor show.
I wish Yunnan would get a clue about how to market their amazing history and drop the political wankery.