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article about the islands

Chingis (242 posts) • 0

I didn't read the article. What does it say about Mongolias historical claim to China?
And what year were the 9 dashed lines discovered?

Magnifico (1981 posts) • 0

haha. not only that. the article mentions absolutely nothing about my historical claim to the entire planet. all that plundering for nothing.

laotou (1714 posts) • 0

This is probably a prickly point, given Japan's significant investments into China over the last several decades - but Japan basically has no right to claim doodley squat in Asia, as they've never properly atoned for their invasion of all asia, not to mention their war crimes.

For those of you who claim Japan apologized - the specific translation of the japanese apology goes something like this: We regret your pain.

Japanese culture has many ways to apologize. This is the equivalent of a Chinese person saying "bu hao yisi" after they just slaughtered, tortured, raped and pillaged your family, children, and neighbors. Mao essentially spat at this so-called apology - and with good reason. So perhaps you Japan-o-philes living in China can better understand the deep revulsion Chinese have towards the Japanese government.

I'm a Japan-o-phile - love japanese things, love their culture (a well maintained copy of China's Tang dynasty period with some eccentricities), love their people - but am only too painfully aware of their government's war time atrocities AND their stubborn refusal to take responsibility for their actions. This cannot be sustained and China has clearly stated Japan will atone for this soon (I'm assuming this means before the 100 year anniversary of Japan's invasion of China). Japan's war crimes stained all Asia. The longer Japan waits to sincerely apologize, the less the value of that apology.

Incidentally - all those Korean and other nations' women that Japan turned into slave prostitutes - they cannot receive redress (financial compensation) because of US intervention - essentially giving Japan a carte blanche waiver for all war crimes in Asia. That was mighty arrogant.

Personally, I think China is exhibiting impressively amazing restraint and showing extraordinary civility in negotiating the fate of the diaoyu rocks with japan, but it's definitely a powder keg to be watched carefully. We have an extraordinarily interesting modern version of the three kingdoms playing out before our eyes. China - Japan - USA.

The USA - with all it's postulating, shares a large burden of blame for the general continuing annual displeasure of all east asia (minus Thailand - read up on that for yourself) with Japan's post-modern history in Asia. The USA prevented the war tribunal trials of most of Japan's flagrant war criminals - executing those few that were well known to Americans for crimes against Americans and freeing the rest. Now there's another debatably poor US foreign policy that's STILL having long-term repercussions. Penny rich, pound (£) foolish, as they say.

China's problem is how to take possession of its islands without looking like a bully (aka like Japan in its military heyday). Most difficult if not impossible problem to resolve peacefully with all parties (minus Japan) satisfied, if not utterly happy and content. Japan is lobbying heavily, with US support - by providing aid and other economic benefits to the lesser claimants. Current Japanese activities with Myanmar/Burma should be quite obvious - given the backdrop of Japanese history in the region.

Things aren't as simple as merely the Diaoyu Islands and their alleged natural resource assets and China just played the nationalist patriot card to show Japan and the USA the stakes involved.

Bluff or deadly serious? I think China is deadly serious - as playing the patriot card is irreversible. It's the poker equivalent of "all in" or fully committed.

debaser (647 posts) • 0

@Magnifico - interesting article (if a little one-sided)

@ Laotou - there's no excuse for racism.

No apology?? try:
en.wikipedia.org/[...]

just for those too lazy/'busy' to follow the link... a few quotes:
September 29, 1972: Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka. "The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself. Further, the Japanese side reaffirms its position that it intends to realize the normalization of relations between the two countries from the stand of fully understanding 'the three principles for the restoration of relations' put forward by the Government of the People's Republic of China. The Chinese side expresses its welcome for this" (Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China).

August 24, 1982: Prime Minister Zenko Suzuki. "I am painfully aware of Japan's responsibility for inflicting serious damages [on Asian nations] during the past war." "We need to recognize that there are criticisms that condemn [Japan's occupation] as invasion"

August 26, 1982: Chief Cabinet Secretary Kiichi Miyazawa. "1. The Japanese Government and the Japanese people are deeply aware of the fact that acts by our country in the past caused tremendous suffering and damage to the peoples of Asian countries, including the Republic of Korea (ROK) and China, and have followed the path of a pacifist state with remorse and determination that such acts must never be repeated. Japan has recognized, in the Japan-ROK Joint Communique, of 1965, that the 'past relations are regrettable, and Japan feels deep remorse,' and in the Japan-China Joint Communique, that Japan is 'keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war and deeply reproaches itself.' These statements confirm Japan's remorse and determination which I stated above and this recognition has not changed at all to this day. 2. This spirit in the Japan-ROK Joint Communique, and the Japan-China Joint Communique, naturally should also be respected in Japan's school education and textbook authorization.

I'm no expert but they look like apologies. I do understand that people are angry but is it a reasonable and measured display that we've seen over the last weeks?

Anyway, looks like it's died down a bit now. With any luck this will be the last of it (until the next major political change or major sporting event).

I wonder if this thread will be locked too.

blobbles (958 posts) • 0

Wrong debaser, those aren't apologies, for never anywhere does it say "sorry". Apologies are an admission of guilt and represent an admission of said guilt. The statements you posted are great examples of not admitting guilt, and hence responsibility, by using "regret" instead. Saying sorry is a huge step for the victims of crimes to hear, a good case in point is when Kevin Rudd finally said sorry to the victims of the stolen generation racist acts the Australian government perpetrated on the Aborigines of Australia. It was a watershed moment for race relations in the country with all Aborigine leaders saying they can finally move on from their suffering - and seek reconciliation. Most of that was on the same time scales we are talking about here as well.

I must agree with laotou on this, I think he hit the nail firmly on the head and thanks laotou for the insightful read!

YuantongsiYuantongsi (717 posts) • 0

I had read somewhere, but can't reference it here that Japan had made their restitutions with China and through discussions with Zhou Enlai had burried the hatchet, the relationship with Japan and China had been restored, Japan supported China to take her place in the UN, kicking out Taiwan and the situation between China and Japan was settled at that time.

Not sure how much of this is absolutly correct but I do remember the Japan China issue was a non issue while I studied in China in the early nineties, I also remembered how the Chinese made Clinton apologise twice about the spy plane incident before they let their people know and told them to stop protesting. So I am sure that we can't and Shouldnt take any propaganda statements on this issue at face value.

mike4g_air (788 posts) • 0

Laotou's comments are mostly correct and accurate.

In addition, a rarely told fragment of history:
Post war US military occupying mainland japan shielded japan war criminals against prosecution or admitting certain war crimes ever happened because of fear the technology of bio warfare and other information gathered during japanese "experiments on Chinese in China" would leak to the Soviets.
In short the US military said, shut up and you wont be prosecuted.

It seems it was quite effective although in this scenario China didn't get proper apologies from Japan and whenever China shouted unfair the world ignored while japan hid behind the US.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7yDOXGmtro

Magnifico (1981 posts) • 0

Iris Chang makes some interesting comments in an interview at the link below. If I'm not mistaken, she committed suicide after writing her book. I guess all that focus on the atrocities was too much to bear.
www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/july-dec98/china_12-1.html

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What would be enough?

IRIS CHANG: Well, I think what would be enough is a - first of all, for Japan to honestly acknowledge some of the basic facts of these kinds of atrocities, which many revisionists refuse to do, and definitely a written apology, reparations made to the victims, the - I think - inclusion of this - of Japan's wartime aggression in school textbooks in Japan. I think -

IRIS CHANG: And I think that people don't believe that Japan has properly apologized or atoned for what happened because these apologies don't come spontaneously and naturally. You see, I think that if people have a true desire to apologize, they would do so gladly and repeatedly. There wouldn't be all this parsing of words...

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