@michael2015: you are aware that China was the world's leading high culture for most of the past 2000 years; the most "civilized society"? And that people only respond to conditioning if the positive sight vastly outweights the negative side and else they become depressed and apathetic?

I know there are still many poor people in China and cultural coherence has been greatly destroyed during the past 150 years, but give people some time to adapt to the new reality.They certainly will - just as Chinese in places like Taiwan already did.

"give people some time to adapt to the new reality.They certainly will"

I have seen poverty in China, and the solution.

It would not call it adaptation, but breeding out.

The most impoverished population is also the most elder population, and they will die while their children and grandchildren make their lives more prosperous elsewhere.

Those without heir, ones who (should they have such) would more likely to pass the poverty to next generation, will effectively be bred out.

This is the biggest contribution to lowering China's poverty rate. The poorest simply die off the data, and empty villages can be abandoned completely.

I don't know if that's the way it happened in Taiwan.

@michael: So you trust governments to engineer us systematically into what they consider civilized behaviour?
@Jan Jal: The idea that a competitive capitalist social system, national or global, can or will 'breed out' poverty is ridiculous - reformed to eliminate extremes of poverty ('absolute poverty'), perhaps, but it's based on the idea that there must be winners and losers, and that those who 'win' do so at the expense of those who don't - once life is secure, poverty all becomes relative, and those in power are the ones who sit on those who are not.

Anyway, what does that have to do with the subject of the forum?

@alienew: "@Jan Jal: The idea that a competitive capitalist [...]will 'breed out' poverty is ridiculous"

Note that I'm not giving names to whatever system it is that does this.

These are just observations from one impoverished township in Yunnan where my wife is from and where I have visited frequently.

And I don't judge this development either - maybe this is how it has always been and always will be, everywhere.

Despite not judging, I would still seek better alternatives, even if just for sake of discussion.

On topic of social credit and surveillance this relates only tangentially.

If one was to make too much noise of such things, unquestionably (in China) that would affect their social credit negatively.

Secondly, IF there is anything that the government (local or central) could be expected to do better (to actually help the poorest people while they live), perhaps the social crediting should be extended from individual citizens to government entities and their employees.

Perhaps the government should first credit themselves.

It is same old story: who watches the watcher?

given there is no way for the existence of an independent watchdog and there is only one body which has the monopoly of making the rules, shifting goals and the system can easily be manipulated for political reasons. what will happen will be anyone's guess. :-)

@alien
Trust or not trust is irrelevant in this country. Perhaps trust and hope is a better choice of words.

As for favoring positive over negative reinforcement - well, good luck with that. I agree in principle - but rarely in practice.

I'll link this topic to the school related stabbing incident (9 children dead, 10 injured as of today) in Shaanxi yesterday.

According to PSB, this was done by a former student of the school, who wanted revenge for getting bullied by his schoolmates while attending the school.

I'll assume this to be accurate detail, and the slaughter to be a case of revenge by this unstable man.

Needless to say, social credit of this person is down the drain.

But what about bullying that he is told to have experienced - would preventing that early on had prevented this violence?

Is there age limit for this social credit program - are minors treated equally to adults for their misdeeds?

Personally, I think that minors below certain age can not be held liable for their actions to full extent same way as adults.

Siill, I believe that even in case of minors that remaining liability should be collected from parents, teachers, and others who (given the cultural context) are responsible for their upbringing.

I think that as a measure to reduce school bullying, parents who have their children bully others should have their social credit reduced too.

Same in my opinion applies to teachers who neglect to address bullying in their schools.

That said, the further you go from suburbs of 1st tier cities, the more difficult it gets to even identify primary caregivers or legal guardians.

You have migrant worker parents, boarding schools, etc. Who takes responsibility of children's misdoings in such cases?

Neverthless, personally I would gladly see some social engineering to improve parenting in Chinese society - more so than in some other areas of life.

The guy was 28 years old so his revenge waited for many years after he was bullied. Most of his victims were girls so I guess the poor guy was bullied by girls.

@Janjal: The guy was probably not only bullied in school, but by society as a whole years after graduating.
He just blamed his problems in life on the bullies at school.

Chinese society is making it difficult for the poor to succeed in life - buying a home is nearly impossible if you're born poor, no matter what you do. Tenants are weakly protected, so renting isn't a good long-term option. And due to gender imbalance even finding a wife will be tough.

Some people crack under that kind

of pressure. They may become criminals, drug addicts - and a few might blame other life events and see themselves as punisher who feel compelled to right the wrong that has been done to them. None of them see themselves as evil - even if they kill innocent children.

The media shouldn't backup their excuses by talking about bullies - they may encourage others to project their anger at certain life events or people...

@kurtosis: "media shouldn't backup their excuses by talking about bullies"

Regardless, bullying should be dealt with and I don't know what more efficient way there is to raise awareness than media.

Not long ago there was a video circulating of "bullying" case in China, in whicc some girls were throwing a heavy brick at another girl's head, and this was called bullying.

It was attempted murder to me.