nah i was being a cock. Like dazzer said, its all subjective. luck of the draw gettin visas.

Seems like you (the OP) is looking for some one to just tell you it is possible to do this. And you may be thinking that a one in one hundred chance is something to get pumped up about. It really is not. When I came to China bout twelve years ago it was doable for sure. I did not have my BA because I still owed my college money and it took almost three years in China to get it sent to me. But The place I worked for in Beijing got me a z- visa. So it happened to me. Twelve years ago in Beijing. Beijing is really tough now. I do not think it is possible there at all. Also, Back then teachers actually held onto their foreign expert certificates themselves and did not have to get health checks/certificates every single year they worked at a school. They did not have to have a TEFL type certificate. Things are different now. In the end one has to wonder why your qualified friends want to jump through all the hoops to come here to work for about $500 a month and be exploited and unappreciated by peers and employers and students. Schools only want foreigners as marketing tools. Your main job to is to make students feel happy and like you and bring in more money. A pretty face and ability to make students feel happy is more important than actual teaching qualifications. I once lost a job position when I went into the interview. I was not suitable because I was told I was too old. 53 at the time. The s tide to, they said, wanted a younger teacher so they can be friends also. I would say best to just give it up to be honest. You and your friends are going to struggle just to come here to tell students to wake up, stop bellowing in Chinese and put away cell phones for 90 minutes only to get an evaluation that says you are boring or raise your voice too often. And now schools are requesting more and more MAs. No extra pay for that, but it looks good for school. Give it up and avoid the heart ache.

never said it was subjective. said local interpreatation. that mean the way the law is turned into s.o.p. varies between provinces even between cities. but agree with last poster, really not worth trying. like someone else said a while back, lots of places in asia with better culture that will give you a big welcome

i think BA is sometimes a overkill in certain profession. I yet to see a BA cook/chef, a certificate is good enough to get a Z visa. I personally know a cook/head chef even get expert green card. narrow focus might be the hurdle, i guess. :-)

did you read the op?

Yes, after about 12 years of trying to teach in China I have to question why anyone would go through all the trouble to do it. I am not saying not to do it at all. But I would say working at a public university or a decent private college is the way to go, and even then expect hardships. These language centers are becoming worse and worse in terms of how teachers are treated and contracts respected. I stopped teaching altogether and I am happy. I am on a spousal visa and most guys who do the long haul in China and get married to a national wind up doing that I guess. Have known a few others over the years. Money is an issue but we make it. I just hate teaching here so much. This is all the harder for me because I really tried. I took it all seriously. Just one example of how it can be for prospective teachers who want to struggle to get here: I worked at a local private college for six hard years. I was given new classes and one girl just got on my nerves with her "boring" remarks. This is boring. That is boring. I asked her to stop as it was hard for me to do the class. I had no book and about 45 unmotivated students. In response to my request she took my handout and made a paper airplane of it and tossed towards the blackboard. of course there was a confrontation. I told her lets go talk to the dean (who I thought was going to be on my side). She marched up those stairs with a look of bitterness in her eyes like I had never seen before. Until she reached the office door... then she turned on the Chinese girl crying machine. The dean spoke to be for about a minute. I told him what happened. he sent me out and the girl stayed there for 45 minutes. Short end of the story, I did not have my contract renewed, after six years with no issues (the previous year I was voted the 2nd most popular teacher) and when I pushed for a reason I was told "the students must be happy. You must treat them like angels. If they are not happy we have to find a teacher who can do that." And that is almost the best case scenario here. Sure, there are teachers who have been at places for ten years or more and seem happy at a glance, but I tell you, just like me, they are probably wound tighter than you think. I have a teacher friend with an MA and all sorts of ESL theories, and he is freaking out now because he got some negative reviews from his students. His class is boring, he is too serious, he gives homework, he does not like to sing and dance. Anyone out there who has been here for 5 years or more knows of what I speak. The only way to go so that your (the OP) friends might even break even is a public or 4 year private college. And the only way to get the Z visa into one of those is with a BA anymore. And a criminal background check is needed. Of course Chinese teachers do not need such checks. Only foreigners are threats to students here I guess.

My advice: No not do any job that promises a z-visa after a probation period. Get the z-visa going before you arrive. Do not work at most (not all) language centers. DO NOT EVER work at a middle school or high school full time. Do not work here illegally. Times have changed. Some people say it is still like the "wild west" out here. But they forget, the wild west actually had laws and they were strict.

In the end, if your friends are looking for meaning in life and a sense of contribution to society by teaching English in China, forget it. Give all of that up now. I say that with sadness actually. The more you put in the more is taken. They will just be left empty and shattered, coming to places like this looking for comfort and support from other expats, and that is another something that doesn't happen here.

Anyone thinking of coming to teach in China can only be doing so to have a bit of an adventure living abroad for a year or two, or getting some work experience to take onwards with them in the ESL business.

Opportunities where there is a chance to add a few more feathers to your bow are very few and far between.

If you want an easy life, Universities and high schools should be your aim. If you're after money or career prospects you're limited to schools associated to international programmes or internationals schools, although many of those won't have you paying off your mortgage any time soon.

I started out teaching in China 15 years ago, back then things were looking quite good in the ESL business. You could command 150 an hour, and back then 150 went far, schools would try and top each others offers to get you on a contract. Even then though, it was clear that as an ESL teacher in China it's incredibly likely that even the sharpest knives will blunt.

My advice would be use China as a stepping stone to better teaching jobs elsewhere. Earn your stripes here, go elsewhere and keep an eye out for non teaching educational jobs in the foundation courses or MOE advisory roles. If you get one, then come back to China and life wont be half as hard, believe me.

Don't even get involved in training centres any more, they've had their day. One or two I can recommend, any others should be treated as beer money at best.

If they're saying things like probation period or things like that, don't give them the time of day, unless it's your first job. Anyone should be able to look at a CV and references to see if you're worth your salt or not.

Training schools are educational snake oil, living off big promises behind smoke and mirrors, this is true anywhere in the world, but China especially. All they're looking for is someone cheap and cheerful, form over substance. The stories I have heard, some border on the ridiculous, but as they're training centres, they are very well believable. These stories include training centre diddling teachers as well as training centres offering peanuts and surprised when they get wholly unacceptable monkeys.

At the moment I don't have a classroom job and if I was ever offered one in China nowadays I don't think I'd accept for a big clock.

Excellent posts here. It has gotten worse being a teacher here. Too much BS and politics and little support. If you can avoid teaching, that's the best thing.

It is possible. I held a working visa/ residence permit and FEC for 3.5 years with no BA.

From what i can gather, the school had a good relationship with the PSB so were issued the docs no problem.

In China, it's not what you know but who you know.

and you did the paperwork 3.5 years ago. Things have changed, and people need to know what the requirements are now. Renewing a visa is a completely different story from applying for a new one. I agree with you that it's often all about guanxi and who you know... but I would never rely on that to get a visa!