GoKunming Forums

Smoking in Starbucks

Tonyaod (824 posts) • 0

There is a common theme that spans all the arguments about culture, food, smoking, Dwarf Kingdom, blah, blah, blah, it is that foreigners are guests when traveling outside their home country and as such, should keep their mouths shut and accept everything or pack up and go home. As HFCAMPO have pointed out before, the purpose of the forum is to inform and to "entertain" (and I mean it in a loose sense of the word). People come on to gripe and complain and to let out some steam. Last I checked, I didn't see any activism from foreigners (GoK members) to change China. Anything and everything said in these threads are merely that, words, not action. If you disagree then state your opinion and move on, what's the point of arguing?

A greater point to ponder, however, if you are serious about your philosophical beliefs instead of just blowing hot air into the forum, is that at what point do members outside a community become part of the community? To put it more succinctly, it has been argued that we have no right to participate in the evolution of China's tradition and culture simply because we are foreign. It that still true for the some of us that have adopted China as a home country? Meaning we work and pay taxes, contribute to the local society through our interactions, helping local citizens, marrying locals, send our children to schools, etc.

Are we not entitled to be concerned when we breath in dangerous and harmful pollutants? Should we not be angry when we have been discriminated against? Is the solution to "simply go back to where we came from"? Are they mutually exclusive?

Someone raised an example of the Middle East where women "by culture and tradition" have no rights and are treated as objects. While I agree that as a foreigner I do not have the right to "tell" them that such beliefs are wrong and force them to change, I do have the right to make clear my position and opinion on the matter. I can try to affect those around me through my actions rather than my words. Similarly, while I do try to adapt to Chinese culture, I still have my western sensibilities and as such, my friends and associates knows exactly where I stand; those that can accept the boundaries have become good friends, those that can't have moved on. I do not, however, protest on the streets and tell random people that they should be more "western" or that they are barbaric. I can get excited over a Whopper and la mian equally. Again, not exclusive.

My meandering point is this, it is not an either/or proposition, it is shades of grey. It would be ludicrous to say I must reject my conscience whenever I travel abroad or that if I can't or am not willing to do so, I must stay home.

And the final point is, forums are a good place to vent and complain, by its very nature, things are said that are never said in person, it is an exaggeration, a place for our Id to hangout. Some people get too wrapped up in the forum and hang on everything that is said, they feel an obligation to comment or argue every point of every thread. I sometimes do wonder, for those espousing assimilating into the local culture and experiencing China to it's fullest and claiming to be doing lots of "local" things, where do you find the time to keep up with the forum, and why would you care since you are having such a wonderful experience.

One final thought. What kind of integrity does one have when declaring that they are leaving the forum for good only to sneak back in under a different alias? It would be more honorable to come back under the original alias and admit addiction to the forum. Just and observation though, not an accusation.

On that note, good night.

SpartansSpartans (184 posts) • 0

@Alien, I choose how I'll act, not you or anyone else shall be the judge of that. Plus the "law" is on my side, meaning: if the establishment fails to provide a smoking free indoor environment according to the laws of the PRC (also in their 5 year plan), I am not going to stay in that place. You/them can call the marines and the pope if you want.

GoK Moderator (5096 posts) • 0

Voting with your feet is one of the few realistic options mentioned so far on this thread. What effect it will have is open to question. However, I believe that eventually enough local people will also be putting on pressure. As mentioned before, the younger generation are demonstrating a different set of values, and that is who I believe will the drivers for change. The younger generation often drive change as seen in most other countries.

HFCAMPO (3062 posts) • 0

Spot on Tonyaod! Just the usual venting of hot air like the taxi issue. Talk the talk but unable to walk the walk. In my 11 years I have over 300 reports made to the mayor's Hotline (12345). Use the law to your benefit, that is what it is there for.

Report illegal smoking, unsafe driving behavior of bus drivers, illegal behavior of taxi drivers, and report trash or unsafe conditions in your community.

If you use the laws, you can not lose. If you take matters in your hands, you will lose no matter how good your intentions may be.

AlexKMG (2387 posts) • 0

Chinese people, mostly the poor, try and use the laws and lose all the time. Plenty have been driven off their land. Plenty of lawyers who stand up for them end up in jail. So the law is a win for foreigners complaining about tickytacky stuff like 2 kuai on a taxi ride.

HFCAMPO (3062 posts) • 0

I think 80% of the people who use this forum and website are foreigners with ticky tacky complaints.

I dont think the people who use this website are poor farmers who have lost their homes and land in a village that was bought up by a rich developer.

Magnifico (1981 posts) • 0

I saw 2 doctors smoking outside their clinic during their break. Ha ha. How many doctors smoke? How many smoke in their office?

AlexKMG (2387 posts) • 0

In the 50s, all the docs in the UK smoked. So many, that one brilliant researcher decided to do a study on smoking and just recruited doctors as subjects. Once published and doctors read that smoking was killing doctors, they all began to quit and told their patients smoking was unhealthy.

Alien (3819 posts) • 0

@spartans: Fine, make your own choices, but don`t expect that your acts will not be judged by others, just as you judge the acts of others. I.e., freedom/responsibility are flip sides of the same coin. Applies both to smokers at Starbucks and the reactions or overreactions of those who object to it. I`d suggest that ethical responses are those that make advances to solving a problem whitout causing greater problems than the one one is attempting to solve. And yeah, it`s pretty hard to get that one right all the time, so maybe a little communicative slack is better than confrontation, which means at least a temporary breakdown in communication - though there are times for that too. The more temporary, the better. In the end what we want is a highest-common-denominator mutual agreement, not a control system.

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