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Proof that we can't leave

GoKunming (159 posts) • +1

In the following article there is no news as such, but we have received requests about making some information better accessible. We have grouped all info on government regulations here:

www.gokunming.com/[...]

This includes how to get the green health code, the latest on visa extensions and info on foreign embassies in China.

We are continuing to monitor the travel and visa situation. If you have any personal experiences or sources with news regarding visa, domestic or international travel, or anything else that might affect Yunnan residents please feel free to share. Thank you!

michael2015 (688 posts) • 0

@Jan
If you REALLY want to know, feel free to PM me. It's a long and extremely bitter but boring story.

Hillary Clinton (democrat) was Secretary of State when this ban went into effect, but difficult to say if she authored the alleged ban or if it came from Condoleez Rice (Republican) - her predecessor (there was an interim guy between these two), but spastically pointing fingers is pointless with these mega gov agencies. Also - somebody could've just made it up and implemented the ban arbitrarily and illegally.

Eventually I resolved the issue by finding a commercial workaround and paying a premium for the service...but it got done as promised, so no complaints on that end.

JanJal (1068 posts) • 0

I read your longer reply, and I think I understand what you wrote. I'm not from USA, so I can only try to reflect on it with situation in my own home country,

I still don't understand why the US agency (State Dept.) that issued the certificates would need to further authenticate the certificates that they themselves issued.

In my country, which ever agency issues a certificate of this or some other kind, plays no role in further authentication. It is always the next bigger authority - and for (equivalent of) Dept. of State there is no bigger authority, other than Chinese consulate if the documents are to be used in China.

Point of Dept. of State authenticating documents that Dept. of State issued, would be basically to confirm that they are entitled to issue them - not necessary.

If I was to request such regardless, and it happened with a a failing customer service person, I might too get replied "we don't do that" like you experienced - and they would be kind of right.

michael2015 (688 posts) • 0

@jan
Your logic is impeccable - but behemoth government agencies aren't necessarily logical beasts.

Trying to argue or reason with either country's government office is futile - so one merely needs to find a path that hopefully others have blazed and comply.

FYI - ALL of my other documents were chain authenticated from municipal to state to US State Dept - except for the CRBAs.

Regarding your government's stuff - your country may have what's called an "Apostille" agreement with China where they mutually accept each others' documentary artifacts prima facie.

My issue was the US State Dept authenticated EVERY document I submitted EXCEPT for the CRBAs which they recently issued, after telling me to order new documents, implying they would authenticate the NEW CRBAs - and then refusing after we received the new CRBAs. As they refused after we received the NEW CRBAs, it's quite apparent they lied - government fraud. And it took a year and a half of long distance phone calls to understand - they deliberately lied and there's nothing you can do about it. Same guy - so there's no confusion - he deliberately lied and deceived. Fortunately, the new CRBAs were actually required by the Chinese Embassy and they looked much more professional than the originals - so no harm done there.

So once we understood that US State Dept has this kind of culture and behavior - we could then seek alternative solutions and got it done.

The internet can be your friend...

JanJal (1068 posts) • 0

"your country may have what's called an "Apostille" agreement with China"

No, not the case. China is not part of the Apostille convention - maybe they have bilateral agreement with some countries, perhaps DPRK or so. Not mine.

But it still looks like in your case the Dept. of State correctly refused to authenticate their own documents for you.

I mean, they could, and maybe have in past, but isn't it a bit like myself authenticating some document that I myself make up - doesn't make it any more real, in eyes of Chinese consulate.

But maybe your grief is solely with the guy who was mistaken/lied about new CRBAs being possible to authenticate by Dept. of State?

DanDare (99 posts) • 0

@Janjal wrote 'I still don't understand why the US agency (State Dept.) that issued the certificates would need to further authenticate the certificates that they themselves issued.'
I think they may be authenticating the document itself is genuine, not the content of the document being correct.

JanJal (1068 posts) • 0

In my case, the authentication stamps generally read as follows:

"The XXX certify that YYY whose signature and seal appear under the foregoing certificate, is authorized to issue certificates of that nature".

In my understanding authentication does therefore consider neither the physical document, nor its content, but the signature or seal on it. It authenticates the authority of the issuer, or in case of multiple steps the authority of which ever agency stamped it in the previous authentication step.

Thus my point is that an authentication step would be unnecessary bureaucracy if XXX and YYY are same. It wouldn't add anything to the chain of trust.

riiupw (1 post) • 0

Ah...PSB front desk clerks making up bizarre rules yet again, because they don't know.

Xiefei (520 posts) • +1

@riiupw

It's not the front desk clerks making things up. They have the authentication requirements because the local PSBs can't be trusted to recognize the authenticity of documents from a hundred countries with different bureaucratic systems around the world. The goal is to get a stamp on it that they themselves can check.

The last time I had to go through all this, I had documents authenticated by my home state, with the Secretary of State's signature and seal verified by the Chinese consulate covering that region (they have these on file for the states in their consular district), and the local PSB clerks could easily identify the consulate's seal.

All of this would be much easier if China just signed up for the apostille system, but the clerks at the Kunming PSB have no say in the matter.

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